Carrying a Firearm in a School Zone off school property

I have a couple question that could use some clarification for me.

1). By "licence" are they referring to a Permit to carry? I walk a few miles a day on a city owned trail. One section of this trail goes right behind the High School. Yes, there is a fence between the trail and the School.

As A Permit to Carry holder, can I legally carry in this trail?

2). If living with the 1000 foot zone, is it illegal to take a firearm zipped up in an approved rifle case and carry it from your house to your car if the car is parked on a city street, or would the case have to have some type of lock?
 
JimmyR said:
Except I am asking about an FFL operating within a school zone, which is very much the realm of the BATFE, and which is why I am asking about BATFE regs about said FFL in said school zone.
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Once you walk out the door, the FFL has nothing to do with the GFSZ law. Inside the store, you are on/in private property, so the law doesn't apply.

As I think you are catching on, the federal GFSZ law has an exception for people who hold a carry license from the state in which the school is located.. So, assuming that you hold a carry license and are in your home state, you can carry on your way to and from the store, and the store does NOT have to escort you to your vehicle or put your latest toy in a plain brown wrapper to carry out.
 
steve4102 said:
I have a couple question that could use some clarification for me.

1). By "licence" are they referring to a Permit to carry? I walk a few miles a day on a city owned trail. One section of this trail goes right behind the High School. Yes, there is a fence between the trail and the School.

As A Permit to Carry holder, can I legally carry in this trail?

2). If living with the 1000 foot zone, is it illegal to take a firearm zipped up in an approved rifle case and carry it from your house to your car if the car is parked on a city street, or would the case have to have some type of lock?
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Steve, as a Permit to Carry holder, you can ignore the GFSZA. You can carry on the trail, and to your car as you describe.

There may be other local ordinances that affect you (carry restrictions in city parks/trails sometimes exist), but as far as the federal level goes, your permit exempts you from the GFSZA. See http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/usa.pdf page 10
 
BATFE GFSZ stings -- not a rumor.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/batfe-implicated-more-rogue-operations

BATFE agents befriended mentally disabled people to stimulate business and later arrested them in at least four cities in addition to Milwaukee. In Wichita, BATFE agents referred to a man with a low IQ as "slow-headed" before deciding to secretly use him as a key figure in their sting. Agents in Albuquerque gave a brain-damaged drug addict with little knowledge of weapons a "tutorial" on machine guns, hoping he could find them one.

Agents in several cities opened undercover gun- and drug-buying operations in safe zones near churches and schools, allowed juveniles to come in and play video games and teens to smoke marijuana, and provided alcohol to underage youths. In Portland, Ore., attorneys for three teens who were charged said a female agent dressed provocatively, flirted with the boys and encouraged them to bring drugs and weapons to the store to sell.
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Google "BATFE sting operations"
 
I seems that yall are coming around to the right answers.
1. A firearms dealer DOES NOT have to accompany you to your car when you purchase a firearm. That is FUD.
2. If you DO NOT have a firearms carry permit, then your purchase MUST be in a locked container while on public property. So if you put your purchase in a locked container, unloaded, it doesn't matter if there is a school zone outside the door.
3. For general purposes, a trunk is a locked container, but sometimes there is an issue getting from private property to you vehicle when in a school zone.
4. If you have a firearms carry permit or license, you are exempt from the federal law. The federal law does not specify whether that is a permit for open or concealed carry, so both are allowed.
5. CAVEAT: STATE law varies as to whether your CCW is valid ON School property. Some states, all handguns are banned irrespective of licensure, others allow it. And some states allow you to carry (with a license) if you have permission from the appropriate school officials. The federal law does not address the issue. EXAMPLE A: A California CCW permit allows concealed carry on school campuses. However, some sheriffs or city police chiefs (legally) impose conditions on the license banning school carry. EXAMPLE B: If I read the news correctly, Indiana recently passed a clarification to their law allowing carry with a license in school parking lots, but the license is still invalid for carry anywhere else on a school campus. So you can pick up the kids without locking up your gun, but you cannot attend the PTA or p[aren't/teacher meeting while armed.
 
Grizz, is this what you are referencing?

https://gunowners.org/oped2192014ab.htm

a recent report by the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel which details how ATF agents operating stings in six different cities “took advantage of the mentally ill, set up stings near churches and schools and made decisions which some claim actually increased crime in their neighborhoods.”
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Oops, I see AB has already posted a reference. :D
 
I started a thread here on that sting a few months ago. Grizz described a sting in which the feds opened a gun store in a school zone, which isn't what happened here. If Grizz was referring to that story he misremembered a few key details.
 
If you Google "BATFE sting operations" you'll find any number of articles describing multiple BATFE operations in different cities, in which they opened head shops or storefronts in school zones and then set out intentionally to entice underage kids to buy guns from them or for them. Enticements included booze, probably marijuana, and in a couple of instances free tattoos.

In brief, the BATFE wasn't catching criminals, they were creating criminals. Can we spell E-N-T-R-A-P-M-E-N-T, class?

But it's all good. They're from the government, they're here to help.
 
And for those who travel, people have pointed out that your home state's permit doesn't work for a school zone in the other state you may be visiting. Apparently even if that state recognizes your permit for the purposes of concealed carry in fit of unimaginable stupidity, it doesn't count for the Federal law.
 
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
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If my out-of-state permit to carry is accepted by another "State" as valid, does it not meet the criteria above?
 
I don't know, but not from what I've been given to understand from discussions on here. Some technical language thing where the state recognizes the permit, but didn't actually issue it so didn't license you. I don't know.
 
Steve4102 said:
If my out-of-state permit to carry is accepted by another "State" as valid, does it not meet the criteria above?
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No. Your out-of-state permit was not issued by the state in which the GFSZ is located. The law is very clear and specific:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
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This does not say "If the individual possessing the firearm also possesses a permit recognized by the State in which the school zone is located," it says "... is licensed by the State ..."
 
But, if the State recognizes my out-of state licence as valid are they not indeed issuing Me a license to carry in their state? Therefore meeting this criteria,

possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State
 
But, if the State recognizes my out-of state licence as valid are they not indeed issuing Me a license to carry in their state? Therefore meeting this criteria,
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No, they are not.

Read strictly, that means if you are in, say, Florida, you need a license in your possession that says issued by the State of Florida. There is no reason to read the code any other way.

It's more than a Good Idea to obey Federal law.
 
This does not say "If the individual possessing the firearm also possesses a permit recognized by the State in which the school zone is located," it says "... is licensed by the State ..."
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I have some questions...

Doesn't that standard actually make it HARDER to get the "full faith and credit" when another state recognizes your permit?

Could a state- in theory at least, craft legislation stating recognized permits are for all purposes equal to those permits issued by the state itself or some such? Federal trumps State obviously, so it would have to be designed in a way that is obviously trying to get to this end... in such a way as to recognize them for this, without forcing people to go through the red tape and expense of getting and maintaining another piece of paper.

For that matter A) is that a grounds to challenge that narrow part of the law on, and B) If so, has it been done? C) What possible compelling government interest is there in making someone double up on an official piece of paper, generating more records, expenses, and wallet bloat, to do the exact same thing?
 
Steve4102 said:
But, if the State recognizes my out-of state licence as valid are they not indeed issuing Me a license to carry in their state?
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No.

Stop trying to read what you wish it said, and read what it does say.
 
I'm not trying to read anything into it.

If the Laws were so damn cut and dried and meant exactly what they said, we wouldn't need Lawyers and a Supreme Court now wold we.
 
Linguistic Gymnastics Silver medal

Steve, sometimes the laws are clear, sometimes not. This is a case where they are.

When you said:
steve4102 said:
But, if the State recognizes my out-of state licence as valid are they not indeed issuing Me a license to carry in their state? Therefore meeting this criteria,
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You lost all sense of logic.

There is a difference between a state honoring a license and issuing a license. They don't issue you anything. If I drive into Kentucky, the state doesn't give me a Kentucky Driver's License. They just honor the fact that I have one from my home state of Indiana.
 
If the Laws were so damn cut and dried and meant exactly what they said, we wouldn't need Lawyers and a Supreme Court now wold we.
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Steve, sometimes the laws are clear, sometimes not. This is a case where they are.
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In addition, sometimes when they're clear, they still aren't valid. Sometimes unintended consequences come into play when it interacts with another law to boot.
 
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