Carrying a Firearm in a School Zone off school property

[JimmyR]

OK, folks, I have been presented with a conundrum, and am hoping you guys can either explain it or otherwise shed light.


One of my local retaiers (Rural King) has begun selling firearms. It is also within 1000 ft of the local high school. I have entered there, browsing their selection, and chit chatting with the man behind the gun counter. He saw that I was open carrying, and stated that doing so was against Federal Law, according to the BATFE guys who helped them set up their license. He informed me that they have to secure any purchased firearm in a locked container and walk the customer to their car. I asked him if he was sure it was Federal law and not a BATFE regulation, and he reiterated it was Federal law.

Now, when I read the US Code, I see the following:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

A school zone is defined as:

The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

The term "licensed" is not defined in this section. I am working on the assumption that it refers to the person who has a CCP/LTCH.

I have two questions:

1) Are there other Federal laws that might apply here? I'm not worried about State law, since Indiana's school zone does not go off school property.

2) Are the BATFE regulations that might limit the store's ability to allow firearms carry with it being within the school zone?

 

[Librarian]

You found the Federal GFSZ law. Essentially nothing to do with BATF.

It means what it says - if you have a license from the same state as the school zone in question, you are exempt from the restriction. Without a license, must transport handguns and long guns unloaded locked in a case or a gun rack.

The Federal law does not account for places where a license is not required for some form of carry.

And GFSZ does not apply on private property that happen to be in that 1000' school zone.

California has its own version of GFSZ; I happen to live inside a GFSZ.

 

[JimmyR]

You found the Federal GFSZ law. Essentially nothing to do with BATF.

Except I am asking about an FFL operating within a school zone, which is very much the realm of the BATFE, and which is why I am asking about BATFE regs about said FFL in said school zone.

It means what it says - if you have a license from the same state as the school zone in question, you are exempt from the restriction. Without a license, must transport handguns and long guns unloaded locked in a case or a gun rack.

Except that in most other cases of using the word "Licensed" in the same section, it refers to someone who has a Federal Firearms License, as in a "licensed dealer," hence my trepidation.

The Federal law does not account for places where a license is not required for some form of carry.

And GFSZ does not apply on private property that happen to be in that 1000' school zone.

California has its own version of GFSZ; I happen to live inside a GFSZ.

That's why I am asking about other laws that I may have missed or BATFE regs. It doesn't matter if the GFSZ Act exempts private property when it comes to carrying in a school zone if the BATFE won't issue an FFL to a dealer within a GFZ without banning carry. I haven't found anything suggesting this, which is why I am asking here.

 

[Librarian]

(q)(2) is not aimed at FFLs.

The behavior you describe

He informed me that they have to secure any purchased firearm in a locked container and walk the customer to their car. I asked him if he was sure it was Federal law and not a BATFE regulation, and he reiterated it was Federal law.

is entirely consistent with the requirements of GFSZ for folks without a license to carry.

You don't mention your state, but I can tell it isn't California (for which you should thank your lucky stars). Here, it is effectively impossible to to open an FFL within 1000 feet of a school. But if one were to exist, locked-case transport would be required to bring firearms to and from that FFL.

 

[JimmyR]

(q)(2) is not aimed at FFLs.

I know, which is why I was asking if there were any other Federal statutes or regulations that would apply that I was missing.

The behavior you describe

He informed me that they have to secure any purchased firearm in a locked container and walk the customer to their car. I asked him if he was sure it was Federal law and not a BATFE regulation, and he reiterated it was Federal law.

is entirely consistent with the requirements of GFSZ for folks without a license to carry.

That's what I gathered. That part doesn't bother me too much, and honestly makes sense, since the gun counter is in the far back corner of the store.

The supposed "ban" on carrying in the store is what I am really trying to get answers about. I don't think I was clear.

You don't mention your state, but I can tell it isn't California (for which you should thank your lucky stars). Here, it is effectively impossible to to open an FFL within 1000 feet of a school. But if one were to exist, locked-case transport would be required to bring firearms to and from that FFL.

I snuck it in at the end, mostly because the guy was so adament about it being Federal law, and because Indiana's school zone law is limited to school property.

 

[Armed_Chicagoan]

My understanding is that the federal law is never enforced except as an added charge to other offenses.

Because it's pretty ridiculous on its face, anyone transporting a firearm through a state they are not a resident of is bound to pass within 1,000' of school property at some point.

So unless you're also running drugs or trafficking humans or committing some other crime you won't be charged with that.

 

[Sierra280]

^^that makes a little bit more sense. The 'main street' in the town I live in is HWY395 if I buy a gun a Carson City (where I picked up my last one). Just by driving home on 395 through town I pass through 2 school zones!!

My how the world has changed, seems like fear runs everyone's lives. I remember, growing up in Montana, during hunting season most all the trucks in the High School parking lot had rifles in the back windows. When we moved to NV it was different, everyone in High School had shotguns in their vehicles during duck season. I remember a guy showing up to home room, then ditching the next period; 'where did you go?' I asked. 'Dude, I forgot I had a goose in my backseat of my truck from early this morning, I had to get it home!'

 

[Rifleman1776]

My understanding is that the federal law is never enforced except as an added charge to other offenses.

Your "understanding" is dangerous. I have a good friend, war hero, convicted by Feds because they "surmised" he had knowledge of something someone else had done. Long story. Take nothing for granted re: the Feds.
The school zone laws are a genuine infringement, IMHO. In many/most rural areas every pick up truck waiting in line to pick up a child after school has a gun inside. This is a major issue for me as I am a reenactor and used to speak in schools carrying a Rev. period flintlock rifle. That is now illegal and I cannot do it anymore.

 

[KyJim]

This is a major issue for me as I am a reenactor and used to speak in schools carrying a Rev. period flintlock rifle. That is now illegal and I cannot do it anymore.

18 U.S.C. 922(q)(B) says the unlawful possession provision does not apply to possession "(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone ... ."

This would appear to cover the reenactment scenario if approved by the school.

 

[Grizz12]

it was in the news a few months ago that the feds (not sure which dept.) set up sting shops next to schools in order to entrap people for carrying in school zones. They mentioned city officials originally declined the opening of the businesses due to the school zoning/gun laws but the feds showed their badges to get a pass on opening the shops.

 

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Your "understanding" is dangerous. I have a good friend, war hero, convicted by Feds because they "surmised" he had knowledge of something someone else had done. Long story. Take nothing for granted re: the Feds.
The school zone laws are a genuine infringement, IMHO. In many/most rural areas every pick up truck waiting in line to pick up a child after school has a gun inside. This is a major issue for me as I am a reenactor and used to speak in schools carrying a Rev. period flintlock rifle. That is now illegal and I cannot do it anymore.

Are they on school grounds?

it was in the news a few months ago that the feds (not sure which dept.) set up sting shops next to schools in order to entrap people for carrying in school zones. They mentioned city officials originally declined the opening of the businesses due to the school zoning/gun laws but the feds showed their badges to get a pass on opening the shops.

Do you have a link to this or is it just a rumor you heard?

 

[KyJim]

Are they on school grounds?

You only have to be within 1,000 feet of a school. That's what makes it so oppressive.

 

[Rondog]

Man, I LIVE in a school zone!

 

[Grizz12]

Do you have a link to this or is it just a rumor you heard?

Not a rumor, I heard it on the news one day.

I googled but did not find anything, that being said, google has tripped me up more than a few times by not using terms I use when searching stuff...

 

[KyJim]

Man, I LIVE in a school zone!

You would be "exempt" while in the house but, when driving to and from your house, you would have to keep the gun locked up and unloaded unless you are "licensed" as described above.

I'm going to put the text of the meat of the statute, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)through (4):

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3)
(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

 

[JimmyR]

@KyJim, so what is meant by licensed? Is that an FFL or love's to carry a handgun?

 

[KyJim]

As I read it, the statute means a license broader than an FFL; it would include a license to purchase a firearm issued by a governmental unit or an CCL provided the governmental unit "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."

I did a quick search and found one published case of interest on this point, U.S. v. Tait, 202 F.3d 1320 (11th Cir. 2000) in which the court said that Alabama's licensing system for concealed carry met this requirement even though the sheriff did not do criminal background checks and Alabama law (at that time) said a sheriff could issue a license "if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property or has any other proper reason for carrying a pistol, and that he is a suitable person to be so licensed."

The Tait case is available publicly at http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait with the pertinent portion beginning at paragraph 17. I'll also remind those viewing this message the Tait case is only the law in the 11th Circuit.

 

[motorhead0922]

In GFSZA, "licensed" means having a concealed carry permit.

 

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Not a rumor, I heard it on the news one day.

I googled but did not find anything, that being said, google has tripped me up more than a few times by not using terms I use when searching stuff...

I really, really doubt this story.

 

[JimmyR]

@KyJim- After posting, I had a brain storm, and realized it HAS to be a CCP/LTCH.

The FEDERAL Firearms Licenses are not issed by the STATES.

I feel like an idiot...