Carry question

Hey, come on now! If we hadn't hijacked it, it wouldn't have gone past the first page, now you are up to three, heading for 4 pages!
 
We carry our firearms for defense. It is well established that a visible show of the capability of force is the defensive tactic of choice.
Click to expand...


I don't agree with the surprise premise that preceded this comment, but I do think that open carry "brandishing" as a means of deterrence is a double edged sword.

You become a target for those who have the ability to overtake you, and they have the element of surprise when that time comes. This means that they'll either shoot you first, or they'll take control of your exposed weapon after physically restraining you.

You actually position yourself as a target of opportunity, where as you might not be otherwise of interest to anyone if they didn't know you were carrying.

We have the choice to conceal or open carry here in MN. I still make it a point not to display my gun to those who don't need to know I'm packing it. This includes IWB holsters to prevent being made when reaching in my pockets.
 
1911 Jim said:
You become a target for those who have the ability to overtake you, and they have the element of surprise when that time comes. This means that they'll either shoot you first, or they'll take control of your exposed weapon after physically restraining you.

You actually position yourself as a target of opportunity, where as you might not be otherwise of interest to anyone if they didn't know you were carrying.
Click to expand...

While this is a widely held belief by many people, it has yet to prove itself in reality.
 
By proof - what do you want? A database of criminals who report that "a crime was deterred today" because someone else was open carrying?

Or do you want reports that police and security guards were shot first when armed robberies occurred? I'm pretty sure you'd find a lot of evidence supporting that.

What you aren't likely to find is a very high percentage of anyone involved in armed altercations who was legally carrying to begin with, because our numbers are such a pittance of the general population.

It's only natural that if you encounter someone with a greater ability to resist whatever force you're applying to a group of people, that you will deal with those people first. Be it taking their exposed weapon, or shooting them.

What I haven't seen is some form of counter argument which has an equally valid reason to open carry.
 
1911 Jim said:
Or do you want reports that police and security guards were shot first when armed robberies occurred? I'm pretty sure you'd find a lot of evidence supporting that.
Click to expand...

If that is the case, post it.

(I'll help you out - there is no such data. OC does not make you more likely to become a target.)

I hope you'll see that this argument is no different than, "Well, obviously, guns are dangerous. You can find plenty of data to support that!" Our whole frame of mind has been warped by the gun-grabbing media/political elites.
 
There might not be a bar graph chart with it, but the accounts are out there.


In our metro, there are numerous gang elements present and active. Open carrying (alone) would put you in unreasonable risk IMO for becoming a target of opportunity. I don't need a chart to tell me this is sound policy of something which should be avoided.

It has nothing to do with media. It's about human nature. If they don't know you have it, they don't want to take it from you.
 
Still no numbers or even an anecdote or two.

OTOH, thousands of criminals have said in surveys that they are less likely to attack a person they know is armed.
 
If you're openly carrying, it covers your butt. If everyone is concealing, it makes it that much harder for the criminal to determine who's their easiest target. It also means they can't track those in the area surrounding their target for people who might come to their aid.

I like that MN is an open or concealed carry state, but for the fact that I'm not violating my permit if I'm made.

I don't have any gun propaganda on my vehicles or my house, and I try not to be very conspicuous when I'm loading up for hunting or the range. I'd much rather surprise someone dumb enough to accost me than have them choose someone else because they knew I wasn't going to be easy.
 
1911 Jim said:
Or do you want reports that police and security guards were shot first when armed robberies occurred? I'm pretty sure you'd find a lot of evidence supporting that.
Click to expand...

Which is the usual argument made for OC'ers being shot first. What do police and armed security guards in uniform engaged in such activities as arresting bad guys and sending them to prison, or guarding a specific asset such as a bank or an armored car have in common with Joe Schmoe who might happen to be open carrying near the scene of a crime? Absolutely nothing.

Cops are not shot because of their guns. Cops are shot because they send criminals to jail and either the criminal is about to be aprehended by that cop or because the criminal just hates cops because of the ability and/or past experience of sending them to prision.

Security guards are shot during robberies because the security guards are expected/known to be there. A bad guy plans out a bank robbery or armored car robbery where armed security guards are present, they plan to take them out because they are KNOWN to be there. An open carrier present at one of those scenes won't be at any disadvantage from anyone else because they are not EXPECTED to be there by the criminal. They will have the advantage of a much more rapidly deployable weapon, with much less noticeable movement required to deploy it.

Now, I will admit fully that I don't think open carry in a gang infested area where there are known gang wars going on would be the smartest thing to do. Gangs do display their weapons as status symbols and I would conceal in such areas. But in the other 90% of America, I just don't see any tactical advantage to concealed carry.

What we have asked for repeatedly, and have been repeatedly denied, is a real world example of the concealed carry crowd argument open carrier being caught in a store, bank or armored car robbery who was shot first - or even shot period during that robbery. The majority of felons themselves admit that they fear being shot during the commission of a crime and because of that reason will not attack a victim KNOWN to be armed, and will not break into a house KNOWN to be occupied because the occupants MIGHT be armed.
 
You're severely delusional if you think 90% of this country is not gang infested. I'd go so far as to say it would be closer to 10 percent which wasn't.

As for not having the data you desire - it's not my job to prove my point to you. I have all the data I need to make my own choices. You can find some data that disputes it if you'd like. You might find info that reinforces it if you try. I don't really care.

This is year old data and it shows 58% of police know of gang activity in their precincts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm
 
Last edited:
Scat happens.

'Horror scene' as 4 Lakewood police officers shot, killed (Story Published: Nov 29, 2009 at 8:53 AM PST) - http://www.komonews.com/news/local/78088192.html
Troyer said investigators have learned that the gunman stood in line the Forza Coffee Co. outlet at 11401 Steele St. South as if he were there to buy some coffee.

When he reached the counter, the barista saw him pull a gun our of his coat. She fled, thinking the gunman was about to target her.

Instead, he turned and fired point-blank at the four uniformed officers as they were working on their laptop computers.

Two officers were hit before they had to react. One officer was shot as he attempted to struggle with the gunman. Another officer fired off some shots toward the gunman as he fled, and may have hit him, Troyer said.

"We believe there was a struggle, a commotion, a fight ... that he fought the guy all the way out the door," Troyer said. "We hope the suspect was shot, because that would tell us who it is. There aren't a whole lot of people running around with gunshot wounds." Two baristas and a handful of other customers were inside the coffee shop at the time of the attack, but none of them were shot or injured. The suspect fled without taking any money.

Troyer described the scene inside the coffee shop as "carnage and a scene out of a horror movie."
Click to expand...

Friends and family questioned murderer Maurice Clemmons mental stability in the weeks and days before the shooting.

Retired Firefighter Slain After M's Game -- Man, 64, Stabbed As He And Family Members Were Walking To Car (Monday, August 25, 1997) - http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19970825&slug=2556687
Stevenson was among more than 54,000 people leaving the Kingdome after the game. A suspect, identified by police as Dan Van Ho, 30, fled after the attack, but was arrested by police about a block away. A bloody, long-bladed kitchen knife was recovered during the arrest.

Stevenson was crossing Sixth Avenue when he was attacked, said Seattle police homicide Sgt. Dave Ritter.

"This fellow approached him and, without words or provocation, stabbed him once in the chest," Ritter said. "There was no confrontation."

Stevenson died about 30 minutes later in Harborview Medical Center.

Ho walked away, then started to run when witnesses started chasing him, Ritter said. He ran several blocks before he was caught and held for police.

Ho was described as a transient, whose mental stability is questionable because he gave rambling statements to detectives who attempted to question him after the attack, police said.
Click to expand...

Another mental - would open carry be the victim have have deterred his attacker?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top