Carry Incident help please

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New Master - I'm curious what gun you CCW and what holster? If it's kydex, did you land on it, and was it damaged at all?
 
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I'm a lawyer too, and I say sue the b*stards!! :)

An assault doesn't have to cause actual physical damages. According to my ancient crim law prof, every person has a right to be free from the fear of imminent bodily harm (the definition of assault); fear alone gives rise to monetary damages.

Battery is touching with the intent to cause bodily harm. Even if you don't have permanent scars, you should be free from being tackled by overzealous rent a cops.

The "shopkeeper's prviliege" allows stores, when reasonably suspecting someone of shoplifting, to use reasonable force to hold him until the police arrive. It would be up to a fact finder to decide if this was reasonable force.

The store will probably settle, but hopefully they'll train their employees better because next time he may tackle some poor bastard with a bad back or perhaps an old man who might have a heart attack. You never know.

It takes guts to stand up for yourself, and even more to file a suit because they are a complete pain in the arse, but don't let people talk you out of it if you feel strongly about it!
 
I disagree with the opinion of those who believe that the store (as represented by the 'tackler') overstepped its bounds, yet counsel that new master should not sue.

Isn't the threat of civil suits the thing that restrains this sort of behavior? If he sues, he's doing all of us a favor the next time a checker gets the urge to clip a customer.

Those who urge he adopt a "gentleman's" approach should consider that such a resolution requires two gentlemen. Not a gentleman and a corporation.

I say file and enjoy your settlement knowing you've made things safer for the next "Best Buy" customer.
 
Isn't the threat of civil suits the thing that restrains this sort of behavior? If he sues, he's doing all of us a favor the next time a checker gets the urge to clip a customer.
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Are violent checkers a big problem in stores? I've been in stores all over the world, and haven't yet been assaulted by a store employee. But then I try to follow the rules of the store. If they want to check my sales receipt, I let them do it.

Part of what's wrong with the the US legal system is the propensity to file suit because one's feathers have been ruffled. People sometimes act precipitously, and all the lawsuits in the world aren't going to change human nature. Suits like the one being recommended here clog the courts, delay justice for genuinely injured and wronged plaintiffs, and raise the cost of goods and services for all of us. I think the gentleman needs to smooth his ruffled feathers and get on with his life. Oh, and perhaps he should pay more attention to the store rules next time he shops.

Good night,
JayCee
 
You people are on CRACK! The more CCW holders I see post here, the more I wonder if anyone here really has the cohones to use this "right" that you fight so hard for...more of you should LEAVE THEM AT HOME. Looks like a group of people like the guy who got shot 9 times in the mall shooting and let people die when he could have stopped it...

The simple fact is, New Master was tackled from behind in the dark, in a busy parking lot. Simple. Assault.

The WORST thing you can do is violently suprise somebody. If you are going to VIOLENTLY suprise someone, your intent better to be to deliver them massive bodily harm or you could end up dead (like the store clerk should have).

If someone VIOLENTLY suprises me like that, you bet I'm going to react with all of the force available to me, leathal or not.

You people point out that you THINK there are facts missing. Well you know what, maybe there are, maybe there aren't. The bottom line is, you're jumping all over a CCW holder who WAS VIOLENTLY SUPRISED...AT NIGHT...IN A BUSY PARKING LOT...

...yet at the self restaint not to pull the trigger and kill the guy. I don't think you can ask any more from New Master than that GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES he has provided.

This whole thing about "Well...the store wasn't 100% right or New Master wasn't 100% right" is straight out of a horse's ass.

The fact is, there was a situation, it was reacted to by both parties and nobody was hurt or killed. I've never stolen anything from a retail store, don't look like I ever would, and you know, when you're on your way out, why should YOU have to stop to PROVE that you're an honest citizen.

What happened to "innocent until proven guilty?"

As far as store policy, as the shopkeepers they have the right to ask him not to return. Period. That's the extent of their remedies for someone who walks past the "honest citizen verification system."

Good lord people, grow up. How many if you have EVER been violently attacked while armed and even come close to having to draw your weapon? Not many I'm sure.

Stew
 
well, i would like to point out a few more things. I was using a kydex holster, and yes, now my hip area does hurt (some what bruised).

To also give you a background, I was once in top physical condition, but with back injuries in the past, neck injuries, and just plain being old (50+) I rely on my firearm as my primary defense as I get older.

Was I hurt, well depends what you consider hurt. I have scrapes down my arm from being on the cement.

The reason I am pursueing legal action is not to make a quick buck, but more to make sure this type of thing does not happen again, and to prevent possibly an event like this happening with an outcome where loss of life or serious injury may have occured.
 
When you purchase the item it becomes your property and ceases to be the property of the store.

A store is private property, that still does not give you the right to assault or detain another person on your property without probable cause. The law works the same on public and private property.

The store can probably file a civil suit also...which means you can also file a countersuit. In front of a jury I wouldnt give the store much of a chance in Texas if they are in the wrong.
 
eghad, i may be wrong on this, but at a place such as costco, who as i recall, started the whole checking reciept thing, is it spelled out in the membership package
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that is correct and costco would have the right to refuse him further service and bar him from the property.
 
I always wait on the line at Costco. It moves pretty fast. The rules are set by them and they are not onerous. If the alarm goes off as I am exiting a store I go back. I have nothing to hide. I have a reciept. It takes a minute or two to resolve things. A little patience and courtesy go a long way in preventing problems.

If you don't like a stores policies then vote with your feet. The kid was dopey for trying to tackle someone in the parking lot. Dying over 15 dollars would be a wasteful thing. A situation best forgotten by all partys involved.
 
3 pages of replies--I didn't read em, so somebody else probably said this.

You're fine, they're fine, nobody hurt and the cops deemed you didn't do wrong in pulling your gun and probably applauded you're self restraint in not pulling the trigger. I'd consider it a win right there and leave it unless the store is pushing any issue. As an added bonus you know the guy who tackled you had a near life experience and probably had to clean his underwear :)

The way you're doing this you're not going to get any money and you're going to become known to people in the legal system--that's lose, lose IMHO.
 
The Costco Welcome Brochure lays out the policies and provisions of the membership agreement.

To wit, in section 9, "General Policies,"

? Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase, etc., upon entering or leaving the warehouse.

? To ensure that all members are correctly charged for the merchandise purchased, all receipts and merchandise will be inspected as you leave the warehouse.

They are spinning it as a customer service, not a loss prevention measure.

This spin is emphasized on page six of the brochure:

Accurate Receipts At the warehouse exit, you will be asked to show your receipt. This practice is a double check to ensure that the items purchased have been processed correctly by our cashiers. This is our most effective method of maintaining accuracy in inventory control. It?s also a good way to see that our members have been charged properly for their purchases.

So the idea of tackling someone to make sure he wasn't overcharged is not going to hold much water.
 
Well from working at wal-mart a few years back the loss prevention were the only people allowed to stop people.They were not allowed to use physical violence unless it was against them first,I do recall they did carry hand cuffs.BUt you can walk out of the store and keep walking and all they can do is follow you,you can even get in your car and leave.They arent allowed to touch you unless you have phsically touched them.Now if you get into your car,they will block you in with themselves and if you try to drive towards them its assault with a deadly weapon,and force would then be used.Ive seen it happen a few times.Oh and i think New master was in the right to pull his gun if being tackled to the ground from behind without warning,but in all honesty I would have to say he was warned.
 
Good points :) You all should be lawyers.

And to the poster who said get the frivolous suits out of the courts so that "really" injured people can use them -- who decides who is "really" injured? The courts.

What lots of people who aren't involved in the legal system don't realize is that judges have a wide latitude in dismissing cases if they're clearly frivolous. In fact, in most jurisdictions lawyers can be sanctioned (fined) if they bring frivolous cases for their clients. Judges have lots of cases on their dockets and are only too glad to get rid of the ones that are silly.

That, in addition to the fact that most plaintiffs' lawyers work on a contingency basis means that if a lawyer doesn't think you have much of a case, he's not going to bother bringing it, because if he loses he doesn't get paid.

So believe me there are lots of checks and balances to frivolous lawsuits and most of the idea that people sue people because they have nothing else to do is just media hype. Let's face it in a complex society you have lots of use of the legal system -- just look at the Romans. In non-complex societies (eg the Taliban, the Mafia) they just shoot you in the head. Let's be thankful we don't live in societies like that.
 
Wow, so much bunk and so little memory to process it all.

Well, lets start with this situational awarness argument. For those of you who believe that New Master should have been aware of his surrounding, and should have been caught off guard, simply do not understand the complexities of real life.

Let us say the New Maser WAS scanning 360. That should take what, a minimum of two (2) seconds for each scan? (Yeah, I know that's an unrealisticly short peiorid of time, given the busy parking lot, but bear with me.) Okay, two seconds. Now does everyone remember the Tueller Drill? If not, do a search, you'll get plenty of hits. Anyway, the Tueller drill stipulates that an attacker can cover 21 feet of distance in and average of 1.5 seconds, giving you (the defender) 1.5 seconds to deploy your defenses (i.e. handgun), providing you actually know an attack is imminent.

When walking though a busy parking lot, I pass MANY people within 21 feet. It happens, trust me. Even supposing that two second 360 scan, that gives anyone I pass an extra half second to jump me. Even given heightened awarness, it is not feasible to survey every possible threat (i.e. every person and vehicle in the parking lot) all the time.

Second (and in no particular order), Costco doesn't check every item in your cart against the receipt. They don't have enough time, nor employees. Neither does Best Buy, Curcuit City, Fry's etc. AT best they check for big ticket items or high theft items. None of them check 100% of the customers that leave the front door. Not even Costco, where if you purchase from the photo or optical departments, you can leave through the entrance and no one will even say good bye.

Third, the right to detain typically ends at the doors, just like your right to defend your home also ends at your doors. Shoot a burglar in your living room, and you are probably within your rights. Shoot that burglar on your front lawn, and you will probably face serious legal issues. Stores exercise no control over the ingress and egress of their parking lot, unlike their stores.

Fourth, nowhere in the "Social Contract" does it mention "we will assault you if we don't like what you do in our store."

Fifth, Costco declared in public that New Master was a thief. That is libel and actionable. Further, they acted in a manner designed to cause bodily harm. Costco needs to understand that this is unacceptable behavior.

Sixth, why are people so ready to assume New Master is lying, either directly or through omission? In all probability, that is the whole story as he knows it, and you cannot expect him to tell otherwise. I do not know who New Master is, nor have I ever been to Minnisota (that's MN, right?) but I find no reason to doubt his story, neither in its original telling nor in the adeed facts given later. OF COURSE I reserve the right to change my opinion should other facts arise, but as given I STILL SAY I WOULD PROBABLY HAVE DONE THE SAME THING.

I probably had other things to say, but it's late and I'm tired.
 
+1

I was coming back to make the point about nailing someone in your living room vs your front yard too, but ya stole my thunder. Good. Now I don't feel like the Lone Ranger. :)
 
Look at the situation here. Maybe you were guilty of lacking situational awareness, maybe you couldn't because of various interferences. But the guard who chased and tackled you rather than stopping short and yelling for your attention was STUPID. He assaulted AND battered you when all he had to do was stop short and demand that you turn around. Costco PAID HIM TO DO THIS.

You've got grounds for an assault and battery charge, and the officers who responded knew it. Since they might have been on a "first name basis" with the guard, THAT is likely why they laughed it off and left. You got screwed out of his arrest, not the other way around.

Go with what your lawyer says. If Costco is paying people to physically tackle people they aren't sure stole anything and are paying them to tackle first and ask questions later, they're responsible as well. And to say you have no loss? Ever heard of mental anguish?

Personally, I'd check to see if Costco itself instructs its guards to behave this way. If not, then I'd probably let them off the hook. But the guard? Any idiot should know better than that. If you weren't running, it was a criminal act.
 
I've been reading New Master's posts and a few other responders.

First, welcome to Texas (did this incident occur in Texas?)

Second, I've never seen a 15 people line at a receipt check at the door and most receipt checks that I've ever seen at Best Buy or any store just let you walk by after you leave the register saying "bye thank you for shopping" or words to that effect without even thinking about looking at the receipt

Third, why in the world would anyone feel compelled to tackle a man just walking out to his car. My first thought would be to go after you and stop you positioning myself in front of you if I could saying "Hold on a second, Sir. We need to check your receipt" and if you attempt to run THEN tackle you. Since my dad is 50+ I can't imagine some kid feeling the necessity to tackle him down walking out of a store. Must have been some Superman wannabe kid. If I wasn't a security guard and just a clerk, I certainly wouldn't be getting paid enough to run down people. I was a sacker at the local Randall's grocery store when I was in high school and college and they started trying use me to run errands in my car. That stopped after the manager ask me to give a man a ride home and he turned out to be a complete lunatic telling me that he was being followed (looking over his shoulder out the back window) telling me that South American government agents or something like that were after him :eek: telling me to "take a left" and "go down Memorial" and "take me to the mall, there is someone I have to meet." I winded up dropping him at a nearby mall where he told me to wait for him to come back out. I didn't wait. :D I told the manager what happened and I wouldn't be doing anymore errands or favors for the store again.

Doesn't make any sense. I can't believe a store manager told that kid to run down and tackle you (50+ year old man) walking to his car (Did they fire the punk? I hope) Oh well, hence the charges you are filing.

You did the right thing in drawing. Bet that kid wet his pants when he saw that gun. I'm sure he will never do it again. Glad the police saw it the same way
 
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"New Master" did the right thing! You identified the threat before shooting thats all that matters, you can appologize for a lot but pulling the trigger isn't one of them:eek: .
 
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