Carry and ammo fails

I think those who carry condition 3 are making a generally informed decision based on their unique set of circumstances. It is not my place to call that decision untenable or unacceptable.
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I carried a pistol in a fanny pack in condition 4 for a couple of years in order to attempt to comply with the letter, if not the intent of the law here in Illinois before concealed carry was legal. It was the best I could do at the time. I only did it in remote areas and understand it while it may have been better than nothing, it wasn't ideal. Yes, it was an informed decision based on unusual circumstances.

With that said, for someone who can legally carry a concealed weapon, condition 3 is a bad choice. It may be informed, in that one can look at the facts and choose to ignore them. It is not be my place to tell others what to do, but if anyone I care for tells me condition 3 is the their choice, I will ask them why and then explain why they should consider more training to help them choose another option. I have done this a couple of times without success, but I have done my best to help them.

Lohman if having a gun is all that matters then this discussion is moot. It is not all that matters though. Having a gun that works when needed matters. Being able to bring it into play quickly matters. If needed, putting rounds on target quickly matters. A pistol in condition 3 does not satisfy these requirements anymore than one loaded with blanks or a realistic replica.
 
Being able to bring it into play quickly matters.
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So we are all carrying in the fastest draw set-up available (not concealed for starters)? Or we are all carrying in the fastest concealed draw position (I'm not)?

I get that not having a round chambered when you pulled the trigger would suck. I get that. I think you are overthinking the time it takes someone to chamber a round with practice (admittedly with both hands free). My biggest concern with condition 3 is not speed but the need to have both hands free to chamber the round consistently.

I'm not willing to "bluff" so to speak with a firearm. If I draw it I am prepared to use it and use it relatively quickly. I will gladly accept all cessation of hostile activities by my aggressor so we can all go on our way but that cessation better be pretty clear and quick. However I think others may be willing to make that bluff and assume the risks that go with it - either by carrying an unloaded firearm or carrying in condition 3.

Please note - there is a difference between something being untenable and being not advisable. I have only stated that carrying in condition three is not untenable.
 
So we are all carrying in the fastest draw set-up available (not concealed for starters)? Or we are all carrying in the fastest concealed draw position (I'm not)?
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I carry in the fastest draw position for me from concealment, most of the time. I see no reason not to be able to bring my gun into play quickly, if I am going to carry one. If you choose not to that is your business.
 
Lohman446 said:
...I think you are overthinking the time it takes someone to chamber a round with practice (admittedly with both hands free). My biggest concern with condition 3 is not speed but the need to have both hands free to chamber the round consistently. ..
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You are grossly "under-thinking" things. Either you lack training or you are just trying to stir things up.

There is such a thing as "best practices." One may be free to choose to do something in a suboptimal way, but this continual rationalization of such choices leads nowhere.

As to the question of speed, you have no way to know how much time you will have to act when the balloon goes up. If you aren't able to do what you need to in the time available, you will be very sorry. If one wishes to handicap himself, that's his choice; but let's not pretend that he is not voluntarily putting himself at a disadvantage.
 
I'm put in an awkward position of defending a practice I find ill advised because I do not find it to be untenable. I am going to beg forgiveness when I make an error in the argument.

There are, and I believe I acknowledged it, a great number of situations where the differences between condition 1 and condition 3 are going to be important. If I was not clear in that acknowledgement I should be.

There are a number of situations where it is not - and one of those situations (where the act of brandishing a firearm stops the threat and no shots are fired) I believe to be the most common use of a firearm in self defense.

We all (ok not all - many of us) handicap ourselves to some degree. Because I often bend at work and want to dress comfortable I resort to pocket carry. There is, at least in my practice, little doubt this is slower than drawing from a concealed position on the belt. Others carry in other non-ideal positions (ankle for instance). Having and deploying a handgun effectively when you need it has factors beyond speed. I would make the argument if speed is the paramount factor those of us carrying concealed are instantly at a disadvantage.
 
An unloaded gun is nothing more that a club............ an unloaded handgun is a very short, usually ineffective club............


If you can't trust YOURSELF to carry the thing loaded, why do you have it to start with??

Or we are all carrying in the fastest concealed draw position (I'm not)?
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I'm not usually either.

My VERY FIRST thought when the shooting starts is what is big and heavy that I can get behind (cover) or what can I hide behind to have some tactical advantage (concealment). My second thought will be to draw a gun and shoot back. The speed at which I can get to a gun will always take a second seat to not getting shot to start with.......... The 2 actions may occur at the what appears to be the same time, but the first order of business is to get somewhere safe.

That said I realize that there may in fact be some situations where cover/concealment aren't available, but those will still likely be my first thoughts, after all, my ULTIMATE survival strategy is to not get shot.

My thought is having a gun to DEFEND myself and my family is second only to being able to survive long enough to use it.
 
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An unloaded gun is nothing more that a club............ an unloaded handgun is a very ineffective one at that
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Never carried an SP101 I take it :)

I don't know why people do what they do. May I just abandon the argument now?
 
I would make the argument if speed is the paramount factor those of us carrying concealed are instantly at a disadvantage.
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Yes, carrying concealed is a disadvantage against an armed attacker. It is the best (and only) option available for most of us. The attacker almost always has the advantage. For that reason we have to be prepared to give ourselves the best chance of survival. Yes, speed is important. Training, practice and situational awareness, in that order, would rank above speed in my opinion. Anyone who gets the proper training will not carry condition 3. It is not an acceptable way of carrying a self-defense weapon.
 
Never carried an SP101 I take it
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Carried one in an ankle holster a s backup for a couple of years......... My left leg is considerably stronger than my right leg now..........:eek: Switched to a Smith 360 years ago.
 
Carried one [SP101] in an ankle holster a s backup for a couple of years......... My left leg is considerably stronger than my right leg now.......... Switched to a Smith 360 years ago.
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I used to tell my buddies I had 5 shots of .357 AND A CLUB
 
The hero who stopped the terrorist was not a novice
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I did not intend to imply that he was. I meant to say that carrying a pistol without a round chambered should be a temporary condition for a novice, while training and gaining confidence, on the path to becoming more ready to meet a threat.

My apology for the lack of clarity in my previous post. By all accounts I have seen the hero of the Minnesota mall was both capable and courageous. I was trying to agree with your stance, but apparently didn't do it well.
 
There are a number of situations where it is not - and one of those situations (where the act of brandishing a firearm stops the threat and no shots are fired) I believe to be the most common use of a firearm in self defense.
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Unless one is willing to bluff with an unloaded gun and throw away the ability to actually use it defensively, someone carrying a gun in condition 3 is going to seek to chamber a round *before* pointing it at the attacker, which is going to delay that presentation, make the defender seem more vulnerable for the second it takes to chamber a round, and occupy an otherwise free hand that might be bracing a car door or guarding against blows. In some subset of those cases, those differences may turn an "attacker weighs the situation and breaks off the attack" outcome into an "attacker overcomes the defender" outcome. Perhaps that percentage is small, but one cannot assume that all successful cases of defense without a shot fired would have turned out the same way with additional delay and zero free hands.
 
that the majority of time no shots are fired does not negate the fact that one may not have had the time to chamber a round.

there are no reasons to carry condition 3, its not safer. How many credible firearm instructors even offer condition 3 training?
 
Maybe this is off topic, but my state has been shall issue state for years. Anyone who doesn't already have a CC permit has chosen not to get one either because of cost, or the inconvenience of qualifying. Not a great situation if people aren't even willing to spend a day listening to advice by smart people, and firing a couple dozen rounds at a target. In january, we go to a permitless status. Anyone can carry if the person is not already legally disqualified. We are also going to have a stand your ground law implemented along with free concealed carry, and we already have free open carry.

I know that people disagree with my position. I just don't like permitless carry because some boobs who otherwise wouldn't be packing a gun will how have a gun they never even fired in their pocket. They won't know how to carry, understand the laws, and they will certainly NEVER HAVE LISTENED TO SUCH INTELLIGENT DISCOURSE AS THIS HAS BEEN. There will be people are going to be out there without training, and permission to "stand their ground".

Now, a lot of law abiding citizens who have never carried out in public are going to start carrying at least occasionally, without having any training. These will be people who had the opportunity to get a permit and chose not to, but now that the decision is easier they may choose to. There will be ladies who go out and get a pink pistol for their bags and a "box of bullets". They will ask a coworker or boyfriend what to do , and they might even be told "put a blank in for the first shot." A lady I met once had her boyfriend load her gun and she hadn't opened it since then.

People who have training and experience can't even reach a consensus on something this complex. Take it as a fact that there are also people out there who are passing on just plain stupid information.

We can't all be right in our assessments. What works for one person won't work for another, and yes, people will die because they choose one way or another, and that's just the way the primer pops.

The most important step, IMO, is getting the information. Learning the laws, understanding how they work, how to operate the chosen weapon. Learning some of the most grotesquely huge mistakes that they can make, such as carrying an empty gun because that gun will scare off the bad guys.

The next step is learning to use it, and getting in at least a few practice rounds a year, after a training session. Then, the third stage is to get additional training and become "good" at handling your weapon, "competent" as some would say.

Without the permit process, there will be many people who will take really bad advice and do dumb things like we talk about in all of these threads.
 
if you cant carry a round in the chamber

If you are so incompetent that you can't safely carry a round in the chamber, God help us if you have to try to chamber a round under stress safely without shooting yourself or me.

If you don't trust yourself, or your weapon please stop carrying a gun, switch to mace. At least that way you will be spraying yourself.
 
briandg said:
Without the permit process, there will be many people who will take really bad advice and do dumb things like we talk about in all of these threads.
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If you think that your "permit process" prevents people from taking really bad advice and doing dumb things, I feel sorry for you.

My guess would be that the majority of people doing the dumb things discussed on here HAVE been through the "permit process" and have a permit.

In Alaska, Arizona, Kansas, Maine, Montana, Vermont, Wyoming, and West Virginia the Second Amendment is your carry permit.

I would be very surprised if there is any significant statistical difference in people taking bad advice and/or doing dumb things in those states that require permits to carry and the ones above which don't.
 
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There is zero training required in Alabama for a carry permit. Essentially a carry permit is a way for the County Sheriff to generate revenue. Since the state is shall issue if you are not a known drunk, crazy, drug addict or felon you are going to get a permit.

How often do people do dumb things with their gun? Everyday throughout the state. Very few of those have permits. Mostly people who do dumb things are the same people who dumb things that keep them from getting a permit. OTOH, No amount training will fix stupid.
 
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