Carry and ammo fails

G

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
We've constantly had folks post some reason why they would carry unchambered. It usually boils down to that they will shoot themselves and then some cognitive dissonance blather about Israelis and the like.

We've recently had a thread about a less than intelligent suggestion to have the first round be a blank because it will scare the bad guy and you can't trust yourself to make hit or not shoot an innocent on the first shot. Which some say they will fire wildly.

So: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/u...er-in-minnesota-mall-after-8-are-stabbed.html

Ask yourself, how does either genius suggestion aid you if you face this attacker?

Answer - they don't. Next answer - learn to use your firearm.

Grumpy - yep, this constant announcement of not understanding when potentially lethal force is to be used or not be competent is grating on me.
 
I don't think condition 3 is absolutely untenable. Do I chose to carry condition 3? Nope. Do I care if others do? As long as they are aware of the compromises that they are making it is not my concern.
 
Military policy inside the wire at most bases I went to was condition 3 or even condition 4 with no magazine inserted. I pretty much ignored it, carried in condition 2 and was never called on it.

Some places during certain years made you clear your weapon before you went in to certain buildings or areas to make sure you were condition 3 or 4. Some places even had guards to make sure you did so. I did not go to those places or figured out another way to evade the guards. It was not terribly hard. I figured if I could easily do it, then others could and would do it as well.
 
lots of situations happen immediately, some develop, whether it's ten seconds or a microsecond, your mind had better be involved in the developing situation rather than putting your handgun into firing condition. forget a safety and you're SOL, and the panic may set in for those who are taken by surprise and scared witless. that's a good argument for glock style handguns. Of course for every argument for handguns that don't have external safeties, there are a number of criticisms for that.

The BS in the visual media of making an "ooh, I really mean business now' noise with their weapons is a defective tactic. The media is committing a grave disservice to the people who may find themselves in such a situation.

Using a blank isn't a good idea, as said so many times, even if it would cycle the slide. Carrying with an empty chamber is IMO even worse. When a situation develops, will instinct cause you to rack the slide, will you have the time to?

Training is important, and i hope that NOBODY would train for a situation of waiting until threat is imminent and then having to stop to load his chamber.

Imo, this issue is all about being ready when the crisis happens, because by the time you draw your weapon, you should already be in a situation that involves great risk, and a reasonable certainty that you are going to need that firearm ready and in your hand, and fully ready to fire.

A lot of people just have the epiphany that they have found the "perfect solution" to a problem, and it's not always a practical idea.
 
a friend of mine worked at a nuclear installation as a guard. The constant training he went through would have been almost spec ops level. Those boys never went anywhere without their weapons loaded and chambered, with safety on if applicable. they mostly carried rifles with backup sidearms.

Are freakin terrorists who are attacking a nuclear plant going to give a guard even second before jumping in with full force? When the plan calls for attack, they are going to attack, and having to load and rack an AR takes a second or two.

I once watched a documentary about nuke plants and the safety precautions. The containment dome that cover some of them was tested for resistance to plane attack.

So, they launched a hollow device meant to mimic a fuselage at a nominal speed at a sheet of concrete that represented a dome. The concrete held, and everybody felt safe, knowing that the greatest scientists in the world had just proved that a nuclear plant was safe against air attack. Anyone with a critical mind would have been able to realize that the test was ridiculous. In fact, I believe that even a heavy helicopter could have breached the dome, but not necessarily damaged the reactor.

Two choppers, both heavily laden with explosives? Sure, that's just ridiculous, right?
 
The truth if the matter is quite simple in my opinion. Most of us will not know how we will act or react when the moment arrives. The scenarios are many and some of them may be disguised to the point that you might not know that your life is at stake until it happens. Will you freeze? Will you run or fight? How long will it take to react? Are you fast enough to to counter the attack?

Too many variables are at stake and one hopes that as the situation arises we can handle it appropriately. Most of us that have not been tested in life and death situations will never know our true character until you have been tested to the limit.

Hollywood makes it look easy, but as I have observed since the invention of the cell phone, the majority of the millennial generation are not even aware of their surrounding so avoiding imminent danger for them is not their top priority.

I am old enough to know that if I carry in condition one or 3 or 4 there is always a possibility if not a probability that a mechanical failure will occur, regardless of type of weapon you use. I also know that all of us are victims at one point or another regardless of training or lack thereof pecause a criminal will always attack when they feel it is to their advantage. I am at an advantage mentally as I have many years of training in the military but now at my age I am at a disadvantage as well since I am not as physically strong as I was 40 years ago.

I know it is frustrating for you as a staff member to hear the same questions and answers over and over, but every day people that are not of age become eligible eventually to buy guns, every day we have new people adventuring into a new world of guns and defense, and to them the questions they ask are for the first time, wanting to learn from those that have taken the path before them. And yes every day we have those that lack common sense some how survive life.

Good luck and happy shooting.
 
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I have had two situations come up in which I thought force was/ might be needed. First, an apparent banger was threatening a group of kids at a C store. I stepped from my car into shadows, put my pistol into my jacket pocket, safety off hammer down. Close enough to take a shot. Hidden. gun in an easy to access place. It wound down, he left. Nothing happened.

The second time was quick, unexpected, and not as well executed as it should have been.

I never added my left hand to my grip. there were two of them, one was at 2.00, and I lost track of him, because he was behind a hedge and fence. Seriously, I was already stoked on adrenaline from the first time the guy had confronted me, and the second time is what I am discussing. My entire mind was focused on him and the unfolding situation, and I didn't pay enough attention to other concerns. Sure, absolutely, I might have forgotten to take the safety off, and if my chamber was empty, god god, y'all, would it would have been helpful to spend the time dry firing at the goober before remembering to chamber a round?

Alarm buzzer goes off, red lights flash, range master calls me a moron, my application for swat member at the PD is rejected with prejudice.

Counting on your reactions, believing that in the crunch you will gain superpower skills and overcome your own weaknesses doesn't happen.

What happens in most cases is that the performance comes nowhere near to personal expectations, training is not automatic, and responses may be absolute utter failure. Don't complicate things beyond what you have to to remain safe.
 
I like this thread. There have been some other threads recently that had some bad suggestions in them. I did not offer my thoughts in those threads because I did want to be part of those conversations. So here is the thought that I have considered posting in those other threads.

Each handgun or type of handgun has a standard manual of arms, and a standard set of practices. There are four main categories of handguns used for defense.

  • Single actions semi-autos that are carried cocked and locked.
  • Double action semi-autos that are carried hammer down on a live round.
  • Striker fired autos that are carried with a round in the chamber.
  • Double action revolvers carried with all chambers loaded.

If you have one of these and you don't like the standard practices, then choose a different one. If you don't like any of them, then get more training, and choose one of these. Your choice may be a compromise, but everything about firearms involves compromise.

In the past, there have been other types of handguns, and there have been different standards and practices. For example, 70 years ago single action semi-autos with no safety were not uncommon. I do not recommend carrying one of these. And I don't recommend carry practices that are nearly as outdated.

I don't want to talk too much about condition 3, because it is not an up to date practice for licensed civilians in the US. But if you are governed by some regulation that requires condition 3, then it may be workable with extensive training. But if condition 3 is not required by regulation, then it is not a good practice.

Everyone who carries a gun should use a method that they feel confident and safe with. But they should not invent a method that differs from all standard practices.
 
And so begins yet another edition of the same discussion we've had over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again all over the Internet.

I'm going to carry a round in the chamber, you do what you want
 
straightshooterjake said:
I like this thread. There have been some other threads recently that had some bad suggestions in them. I did not offer my thoughts in those threads because I did want to be part of those conversations. So here is the thought that I have considered posting in those other threads.



Each handgun or type of handgun has a standard manual of arms, and a standard set of practices. There are four main categories of handguns used for defense.



  • Single actions semi-autos that are carried cocked and locked.
  • Double action semi-autos that are carried hammer down on a live round.
  • Striker fired autos that are carried with a round in the chamber.
  • Double action revolvers carried with all chambers loaded.



If you have one of these and you don't like the standard practices, then choose a different one. If you don't like any of them, then get more training, and choose one of these. Your choice may be a compromise, but everything about firearms involves compromise.



In the past, there have been other types of handguns, and there have been different standards and practices. For example, 70 years ago single action semi-autos with no safety were not uncommon. I do not recommend carrying one of these. And I don't recommend carry practices that are nearly as outdated.



I don't want to talk too much about condition 3, because it is not an up to date practice for licensed civilians in the US. But if you are governed by some regulation that requires condition 3, then it may be workable with extensive training. But if condition 3 is not required by regulation, then it is not a good practice.



Everyone who carries a gun should use a method that they feel confident and safe with. But they should not invent a method that differs from all standard practices.
Click to expand...



+1

Anyone who is worried to carry condition 1 would do well to consider a double action revolver or double action semi auto.
 
Head scratching of the week: How come people who CLAIM to have taken courses and be totally, absolutely super experienced in self defense say that they routinely carry 6 or 8 totally different weapons and are able to know instinctively which type they have and where/how they are carrying it, so they can do a super fast draw under any conditions and never make a mistake?

And since almost all the posters on site like this one CLAIM super experience in gun handling and self defense, how come there are so few reported cases of armed self defense, even by police?

Jim
 
Empty chamber gives you an extra few seconds if your gun is taken from you. Don't think it cant happen to you. One of my fellow officers was shot three times with his duty revolver after it was taken from him. Would an empty chamber helped? Maybe not but couldn't have hurt.
 
The only time my carry pistols aren't loaded is during cleaning. As soon as cleaning is done, a round is chambered and stays chambered until I need to fire it or clean it again.
 
Well, here are a few real life examples where an empty chamber would not have helped:

Example #1: Man is playing poker with friends when game is robbed. Robber discovers man's holster while collecting wallets and gunfight ensues. Man is shot in both the right and left hand before he can return fire; but still manages to hit the robber and chase him off: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/988015_.html&page=1

Example #2: Man is filling up car at gas station when he is approached by two men who begin talking casually to him and then attack him. His loaded Glock is in the center console of his car. This one has video so you can watch the guy trying to hang on with one hand and grab his gun with the other as the bad guy is trying to drag him out of his car. He also gives his thoughts on carrying with a round chambered: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454970

Example #3: Man is coming home from visiting sick relative when three men approach him and shout "Give it up!" and then immediately begin firing. He is hit twice in the abdomen and once in the left hand; but draws and returns fire, chasing away his attackers: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421065
 
Glenn,

I've carried in condition one for over 20 years CCW. Been in IPSC and IDPA for 40 years where we did it all in condition one. Never ever had an accident or ND. Never carried a blank round either.

And with this terrorist stuff, oh yea, I pack condition ONE. And it ain't no blank for any round!

I trust myself to KMFFOTFT till it's time to go 'bang'.

Deaf
 
None of the police in the US carry in 3 or 4.



And since almost all the posters on site like this one CLAIM super experience in gun handling and self defense, how come there are so few reported cases of armed self defense, even by police?
Click to expand...

Normally with police cases the police shooter is instructed not to talk about it. This is for legal civil and criminal implications. In case where an arrest is made police most often do not want to talk about details of the case for the same reason.

Most of the time when people who are not police are involved in a shooting they don't want to talk about that either. Aside from being poor form there may be criminal and civil implications as well. This includes cases where no shots were fired but an arrest was made.
 
Fm 12, can you clearly, accurately, and factually explain to me how often gun grabs happen that result in shootings of the loser of the gun, compared to how many actual shooting events go smoothly and as planned, without relying on an empty chamber to be safe?

Doing something that I personally consider to be absolutely foolish to prevent a rather uncommon event is not cost effective.

If you are worried about gun grabs, there are plenty of gun grab retention holsters.

There is more than one way to filet a crappie, and doing it with a pair of needle nosed pliers is one of the countless stupid ways to do it.
 
Head scratching of the week: How come people who CLAIM to have taken courses and be totally, absolutely super experienced in self defense say that they routinely carry 6 or 8 totally different weapons and are able to know instinctively which type they have and where/how they are carrying it, so they can do a super fast draw under any conditions and never make a mistake?
Click to expand...

I've never understood how that works either. Develop muscle memory? How can you develop muscle memory on ten different objects?

The basketball team was given volleyballs to shoot hoops with for an hour, and the results were not only humbling, but quite comical.
 
Re super fast draw, my father in law was one of the super john wayne shooters. He could outdraw his mirror. But he wouldn't do it with a loaded gun. What was the point of you can outdraw the mirror, but not put the gun on target and fire it?

It's a simple fact that chaos is everywhere, and so is foolishness.
 
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