I was at Gander Mountain yesterday and saw that they had a special on a carbon fiber AR-15. It was cheaper than most AR's that I see, so here is my question, are these things good buys or not? I know that carbon fiber allows the rifle to weigh less, but does it hamper reliability, durability, or functioning? I'm sorry if this is a repeat post, couldn't find a post on the first few pages like it. Thanks.
Carbon Fiber AR's?
- Thread starter OsOk-308
- Start date
I have a Carbon-15 Pistol (AR pistol). Here's what I can tell you:
1. They don't break - I've fired over 1000 rounds through it and the only sign of wear is the red anodizing on the weighted buffer that fits inside of the bolt carrier (I know - different than AR rifles)
2. They do jam if you don't keep them cleaned - especially with Wolf steel cased ammo. It will shoot wolf steel-cased ammo, but you need to clean it more often to keep it from jamming.
3. The cartridges do not dig holes in the carbon fiber frame near the feed ramp.
4. They are incredibly light weight.
That being said, I probably wouldn't buy another one - not new, anyway. Then again, I doubt I'd ever buy another AR type rifle or pistol. I just think there are better options out there for close to the same price.
1. They don't break - I've fired over 1000 rounds through it and the only sign of wear is the red anodizing on the weighted buffer that fits inside of the bolt carrier (I know - different than AR rifles)
2. They do jam if you don't keep them cleaned - especially with Wolf steel cased ammo. It will shoot wolf steel-cased ammo, but you need to clean it more often to keep it from jamming.
3. The cartridges do not dig holes in the carbon fiber frame near the feed ramp.
4. They are incredibly light weight.
That being said, I probably wouldn't buy another one - not new, anyway. Then again, I doubt I'd ever buy another AR type rifle or pistol. I just think there are better options out there for close to the same price.
Technosavant
New member
Personally, I don't see the point. You aren't saving that much weight. If they were stronger, they'd be used by more manufacturers, but the CF receivers are still something of an anomaly. I'd take a Bushmaster over the Vulcan (heck, I run far, far away from anything that says Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne on it... absolute garbage), but that isn't saying much.
IMO, while they're a bit cheaper, they are cheaper (not just in a financial sense). I could see one for a build of the absolute lightest possible rifle, but then you'd be talking lightweight barrel, a CF handguard, and generally going minimalist on everything. If you aren't doing that, you're missing the point. You can still have a lightweight rifle with traditional forged aluminum receivers and that additional weight will mean actual strength added.
IMO, while they're a bit cheaper, they are cheaper (not just in a financial sense). I could see one for a build of the absolute lightest possible rifle, but then you'd be talking lightweight barrel, a CF handguard, and generally going minimalist on everything. If you aren't doing that, you're missing the point. You can still have a lightweight rifle with traditional forged aluminum receivers and that additional weight will mean actual strength added.
chris in va
New member
The only thing I've heard from owners is increased recoil being lighter weight. Not that it matters much with the 5.56.
christcorp
New member
When I was at Sportsman's Warehouse at christmas, they had a Bushmaster Carbon AR15 for $599 and a S&W M&P15OR on sale for $749 (With an additional $100 rebate coming from S&W). Choice was a NO-BRAINER. I chose the S&W M&P15.
If there were NEVER SALES; and the Plastic Bushmaster was $600 compared to the normal $800, $900, or $1000 AR's, then the Bushmaster Carbon would be tempting. And rightfully so. Especially for a once in a while weekend plinker and the Home defense rifle. However; this isn't the case. Sales are indeed common. You can get much better quality AR's on sale for the $650-$800 price range. Now, there are those that don't know how to shop around. Some who won't wait for sales. Those who are simply impatient; Yet, cost is important. That's who these weapons are built for. And the companies will make more money off of these buyers than those who spend more on quality, or wait for sales and shop around. You'll see professionals using M&P, but not their "Sport" version. You'll see some use Bushmasters; but not their "Carbon" version.
Now; is this bad or good. Personally, I think the more AR's, rifles, pistols, and shotguns that are in the hands of Americans...... THE BETTER!!!! I.e. I'd rather see a $150 Hi-Point 9mm in 100% OF EVERY AMERICAN HOME than a Glock-19 in 20% OF EVERY AMERICAN HOME. Can you imagine if the time came where the government or other government wanted to "Try" and confiscate guns. There'd be no reason to look up Form 4473's to find out WHO had weapons. The answer would simply be EVERYONE HAS ONE!!!
So; if you really want an AR15, but you're too impatient to wait/look/shop for sales on a better AR; and your price range is in the $600-$700 range; then the Bushmaster Carbon 15 is a decent choice. But if you can shop around, wait for sales, do a little research; you can spend the same amount of money on a better quality weapon. This goes also with the M&P15SPORT and some other lower quality rifles. But it's better to have a keltec SU16, Carbon 15, Hi-Point, etc... than to have nothing at all. But there's a difference between NEED and WANT. If you already have weapons and simply WANT; then wait for the sales and better weapons. If you NEED (And only you can decide that), then these are better than nothing.
If there were NEVER SALES; and the Plastic Bushmaster was $600 compared to the normal $800, $900, or $1000 AR's, then the Bushmaster Carbon would be tempting. And rightfully so. Especially for a once in a while weekend plinker and the Home defense rifle. However; this isn't the case. Sales are indeed common. You can get much better quality AR's on sale for the $650-$800 price range. Now, there are those that don't know how to shop around. Some who won't wait for sales. Those who are simply impatient; Yet, cost is important. That's who these weapons are built for. And the companies will make more money off of these buyers than those who spend more on quality, or wait for sales and shop around. You'll see professionals using M&P, but not their "Sport" version. You'll see some use Bushmasters; but not their "Carbon" version.
Now; is this bad or good. Personally, I think the more AR's, rifles, pistols, and shotguns that are in the hands of Americans...... THE BETTER!!!! I.e. I'd rather see a $150 Hi-Point 9mm in 100% OF EVERY AMERICAN HOME than a Glock-19 in 20% OF EVERY AMERICAN HOME. Can you imagine if the time came where the government or other government wanted to "Try" and confiscate guns. There'd be no reason to look up Form 4473's to find out WHO had weapons. The answer would simply be EVERYONE HAS ONE!!!
So; if you really want an AR15, but you're too impatient to wait/look/shop for sales on a better AR; and your price range is in the $600-$700 range; then the Bushmaster Carbon 15 is a decent choice. But if you can shop around, wait for sales, do a little research; you can spend the same amount of money on a better quality weapon. This goes also with the M&P15SPORT and some other lower quality rifles. But it's better to have a keltec SU16, Carbon 15, Hi-Point, etc... than to have nothing at all. But there's a difference between NEED and WANT. If you already have weapons and simply WANT; then wait for the sales and better weapons. If you NEED (And only you can decide that), then these are better than nothing.
Skans 1000 rounds is no where near proving that the Carbon won't break. I have done.. if not came close to 1000 rounds through my AR in one afternoon. After that I take the BCG out and throw it in the parts washer at work.
1000 rounds is a decent break in however.
Personally I would spend a bit more on something else. I am a firm believer in you pay for what you get. Just my .02.
1000 rounds is a decent break in however.Personally I would spend a bit more on something else. I am a firm believer in you pay for what you get. Just my .02.
christcorp
New member
Not sure about the "Pay for what you get" part. Usually; retailers of ANY product or service, charges more than the product or service is really worth. But the good thing about capitalism is that the price is actually dictated by the consumer. If the consumer is WILLING TO PAY $1000 for an AR; or WILLING TO PAY $20 for a box of ammo; then that is what they will charge. There are obviously certain products like gasoline, electricity, food, etc... that we don't have much of a choice with. But most products and services will charge as much as you are willing to pay.
If you look around, wait, and be patient; you will find that $1000 AR for $650. That's what happened to me and many others. And if you paid $1000 and I paid $650 for the same exact item, that doesn't mean that yours is better because you paid more. As I mentioned earlier; if there were never any such things as sales; if all items were fixed prices based on "COST+X-%PROFIT"; then yes; I believe you get what you pay for. However, initial "+PROFIT" is generally higher because people will pay more for it. Prices come down when there's an overrun of production compared to demand. OR; when a newer product is coming out and the manufacturer has too many older models in stock and is afraid they might get stuck with them.
Bushmaster and S&W make a cheaper version of their normal AR's because they can cut some corners and appeal to a different economic demographic. They can have a 20% profit on one rifle and a 10% profit margin on another. But by providing a lower quality (NOT BAD QUALITY, JUST LOWER), and a lower price, they actually gain market share and customer loyalty for that next weapon or word of mouth.
So my point is; for the EXACT SAME price of an M&P15"SPORT" or a Bushmaster "Carbon-15"; you can get a much higher quality AR. You just need to be patient; know how to shop; and look for the sales. In other words; you don't have to spend MORE to get BETTER QUALITY!
If you look around, wait, and be patient; you will find that $1000 AR for $650. That's what happened to me and many others. And if you paid $1000 and I paid $650 for the same exact item, that doesn't mean that yours is better because you paid more. As I mentioned earlier; if there were never any such things as sales; if all items were fixed prices based on "COST+X-%PROFIT"; then yes; I believe you get what you pay for. However, initial "+PROFIT" is generally higher because people will pay more for it. Prices come down when there's an overrun of production compared to demand. OR; when a newer product is coming out and the manufacturer has too many older models in stock and is afraid they might get stuck with them.
Bushmaster and S&W make a cheaper version of their normal AR's because they can cut some corners and appeal to a different economic demographic. They can have a 20% profit on one rifle and a 10% profit margin on another. But by providing a lower quality (NOT BAD QUALITY, JUST LOWER), and a lower price, they actually gain market share and customer loyalty for that next weapon or word of mouth.
So my point is; for the EXACT SAME price of an M&P15"SPORT" or a Bushmaster "Carbon-15"; you can get a much higher quality AR. You just need to be patient; know how to shop; and look for the sales. In other words; you don't have to spend MORE to get BETTER QUALITY!
No, I haven't torture tested it. All I can say is that's what I've run through it - lots of rapid fire, just pulling the trigger as fast as I can. I know that 1000 round is nothing for AR type guns. But, it can give you an indication of whether the gun is junk or not - especially when you disassemble it and inspect it for signs of excessive wear. There is no indication of any "dimple" in the carbon/plastic - I read one account of a guy claiming that the nose of the bullets dug a dimple into his lower receiver. In fact I don't even see how this is possible.
All I'm saying is that there are a number of accounts of people putting down the carbon fiber receivers, but I think most really have no experience with them. The biggest issue I found with these guns is that they need to be kept clean or they will jam - especially with Wolf ammo, which is mainly what I used.
If someone has torture tested a Carbon-15 or run multiple thousands of rounds through one, I'd be interested in hearing their account.
chris in va
New member
Not everyone should have a firearm.
christcorp
New member
Well; whoever is legally allowed to have one based on the constitution, and isn't mentally unstable, should have one.
I would think a CF free floated hand guard or other external components might be cool. I'd be leery of a CF body and internals for sure.
I am an engineer and basing my assesment on the fact that carbon fiber while strong and light is not great in shock loading applications, it is brittle. A gun has little, or not so little, explosions going on repeatedly inside it. Thats pretty much the definition of shock loading. From a material selection standpoint I'd want something else.
If they do work well fantastic, I wont be in line to buy one though.
I am an engineer and basing my assesment on the fact that carbon fiber while strong and light is not great in shock loading applications, it is brittle. A gun has little, or not so little, explosions going on repeatedly inside it. Thats pretty much the definition of shock loading. From a material selection standpoint I'd want something else.
If they do work well fantastic, I wont be in line to buy one though.
StrongSideArmsInc
New member
Professional Ordnance is the maker of the true Carbon 15, there rights were bought by bushmaster, and they still continue to make them for BM still to this day. It is a mixture of Carbon, Kevlar, and Armids.
I have personally owned and shot 5 different models. I have never once had a problem with any of them, and they now are interchangable with mil spec parts. They are cooler (temp wise), lighter, and more economical. I have built them in 7.62x39, 6.5 grendel, and 223. They have held up fine after thousands of rounds.
The only issue we had, was one bulit into .50 Beowulf. It tore the threads from the reciever, were the buffer tube inserts into the reciever. But then again, I have killed two red dots and one scope on the Beowulf too.
The reason they are cheaper, is not quality, it is speed, materials, and labor that brings the cost down. I wonder how many people that bash them own Glocks??? Did you know a Glock only cost $2 in raw materials.
Glocks work just fine, and they are tactical tupperwear. Why can't a AR15 me made of the same thing? I admire Professional Ordnance for thinking outside the box, and trying something new.
If you don't think carbon is way to go fine, but you are now starting to see the military pick up the ball and run with it. Take a look at some of the lastest combat rifles to come out and see what they are made out of.
HK ump, HK sl8, G36, FN p-90, FS 2000, Kriss Super V, wow these must all be junk to with there poly/carbon construction??
Schooled, go back home with your tail between your legs.
I have personally owned and shot 5 different models. I have never once had a problem with any of them, and they now are interchangable with mil spec parts. They are cooler (temp wise), lighter, and more economical. I have built them in 7.62x39, 6.5 grendel, and 223. They have held up fine after thousands of rounds.
The only issue we had, was one bulit into .50 Beowulf. It tore the threads from the reciever, were the buffer tube inserts into the reciever. But then again, I have killed two red dots and one scope on the Beowulf too.
The reason they are cheaper, is not quality, it is speed, materials, and labor that brings the cost down. I wonder how many people that bash them own Glocks??? Did you know a Glock only cost $2 in raw materials.
Glocks work just fine, and they are tactical tupperwear. Why can't a AR15 me made of the same thing? I admire Professional Ordnance for thinking outside the box, and trying something new.
If you don't think carbon is way to go fine, but you are now starting to see the military pick up the ball and run with it. Take a look at some of the lastest combat rifles to come out and see what they are made out of.
HK ump, HK sl8, G36, FN p-90, FS 2000, Kriss Super V, wow these must all be junk to with there poly/carbon construction??
Schooled, go back home with your tail between your legs.
christcorp
New member
I've handled 2 Carbon-15's. Shot one of them. I'm simply not impressed compared to the traditional AR's. But I've already said that there's nothing wrong with people owning them. But if for the same price, i could get a better quality traditional AR, that's the way I would go.
And FWIW: You'll NEVER FIND a Glock in any of my gun safes. And it's not a poly-gun thing. i own 2 poly-guns. Just won't own a glock.
The problem I, and possibly others might have, is experience. We've all heard how we can do great at work or whatever for years; but one really bad experience can totally ruin your reputation. Same with guns. Bushmaster is not the same Bushmaster they were years ago. I had a bushmaster many years ago. I really loved it. I also had access to some just a couple years ago, and I was no longer impressed. They just weren't the quality they use to be. So a carbon-15 is fine for some people. But I wouldn't recommend a Bushmaster to anyone, when for the exact same price, you can get a M&P, Spikes, or BCM. So why would I go for the Bush? Only because I was impatient and didn't want to wait to get one of the other ones.
And FWIW: You'll NEVER FIND a Glock in any of my gun safes. And it's not a poly-gun thing. i own 2 poly-guns. Just won't own a glock.
The problem I, and possibly others might have, is experience. We've all heard how we can do great at work or whatever for years; but one really bad experience can totally ruin your reputation. Same with guns. Bushmaster is not the same Bushmaster they were years ago. I had a bushmaster many years ago. I really loved it. I also had access to some just a couple years ago, and I was no longer impressed. They just weren't the quality they use to be. So a carbon-15 is fine for some people. But I wouldn't recommend a Bushmaster to anyone, when for the exact same price, you can get a M&P, Spikes, or BCM. So why would I go for the Bush? Only because I was impatient and didn't want to wait to get one of the other ones.
Technosavant
New member
Carbon fiber is not the same thing as polymer. Polymer (aka plastic) will bend. CF won't. Try bending something made out of CF, and you'll shatter it.
My guess is they haven't tried a full up poly receiver set for the AR because of heat issues; it would probably work ok for the lower, but not so much for the upper; there's a bit more going on with a rifle (even one shooting something as "puny" as a .223) than with a handgun when it comes to pressure and heat. Last thing you want is your upper melting under sustained fire.
I'm also not sure why there hasn't been more attempts at lightweight composite materials for the AR, but my main guess is that the expense involved with R&D just isn't really worth the marginal weight savings. As I said, unless you're going really light with the rest of the design, you aren't saving enough to be worthwhile. Newer rifles with newer designs can take better advantage of newer materials because they're designed around it. With the AR, it was designed around forged aluminum receivers, and attempts to use other materials require a fair amount of work. It isn't a straight substitution.
sonrider657
New member
I used a stripped Carbon-15 Upper Receiver to build this super lightweight AR. It assembled just like an aluminum Upper (only without an ejection port cover or forward assist) and it runs great.
The "carbon fiber" used in the Carbon-15 is not like the carbon fiber used in expensive bicycles. Rather, it is simply "carbon filled nylon" just like common "glass filled nylon" only the fibers are carbon instead of glass. Nonetheless, it functions very well and makes for an extremely light gun.
The "carbon fiber" used in the Carbon-15 is not like the carbon fiber used in expensive bicycles. Rather, it is simply "carbon filled nylon" just like common "glass filled nylon" only the fibers are carbon instead of glass. Nonetheless, it functions very well and makes for an extremely light gun.
I am using a Cav Arms Mk-II lower on an AR I'm building in 7.62x39. I've used that lower on a .223 and 6.8 SPC and so far as a test bed until I chose a metallic lower to complete the build. It shows no wear whatsoever. The Cav Arms lower will stay on the 7.62x39 rifle for good.
I got the lower from a group buy for $110. Add a $55 LPK and there you go.
As for the Bushy Carbon 15, I looked at one at Sportsmans just before Christmas and wasn't impressed. Sure it would probably hold up for a few thousand rounds but the difference between the Bushy and the Cav Arms Mk-II is noticeably different.
I think there are better AR's out there other than the Carbon-15 but if moneys tight, the choice is yours.
I got the lower from a group buy for $110. Add a $55 LPK and there you go.
As for the Bushy Carbon 15, I looked at one at Sportsmans just before Christmas and wasn't impressed. Sure it would probably hold up for a few thousand rounds but the difference between the Bushy and the Cav Arms Mk-II is noticeably different.
I think there are better AR's out there other than the Carbon-15 but if moneys tight, the choice is yours.
I love all these people who don't have a clue about what they are talking about. They don't own one and in most cases never seen one. (they sell out too fast, I got the last one at Cabelas at the time). Not a $1,200.00 gun, but I only paid $599.00 for it. Only Carbon Fiber parts are the upper and lower reciever everything else is what you will find on anyother AR. New Bushy's are coming out with the ejection port door and foward assist, hard case, two mags and free Bushnell mini-red dot (great) unless you order the model without them.
It works and works well and is accurate.
If you want to pay $900.00 to $1,300.00 be my guest.
Jim
It works and works well and is accurate.
If you want to pay $900.00 to $1,300.00 be my guest.
Jim