Can't Kill
- Thread starter roy reali
- Start date
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
Ya know, when I was young, I shot darned near everything and never gave it a thought. One day, or maybe it was over time, I woke up to find that I wasn't comfortable with killing any more.
I'll still shoot coyotes in a heartbeat, or anything else that needs killing, but I just don't get a thrill out of it any more. It's just a chore that needs doing.
Maybe, and I don't want to sound melodramatic or such, after years in law enforcement and seeing a lot of death, I came to realize the value of life. Maybe I'm just getting older. I don't know.
At any rate, I did miss the thrill of the stalk, and I still enjoy shooting, so I cut down an old rifle stock, modified it to accommodate my old Nikon F2 with a long lens and motor drive, and ran a cable release through the trigger guard.
I still hunt and stalk, and shoot a "rifle" at critters, but my trophies are photos and my Boone and Crockett shots make it to wildlife & nature magazines rather than my wall.
I'll still shoot coyotes in a heartbeat, or anything else that needs killing, but I just don't get a thrill out of it any more. It's just a chore that needs doing.
Maybe, and I don't want to sound melodramatic or such, after years in law enforcement and seeing a lot of death, I came to realize the value of life. Maybe I'm just getting older. I don't know.
At any rate, I did miss the thrill of the stalk, and I still enjoy shooting, so I cut down an old rifle stock, modified it to accommodate my old Nikon F2 with a long lens and motor drive, and ran a cable release through the trigger guard.
I still hunt and stalk, and shoot a "rifle" at critters, but my trophies are photos and my Boone and Crockett shots make it to wildlife & nature magazines rather than my wall.
wyobohunter
New member
Peetzakilla says
"I don't begrudge anyone who wants to hunt anything but I have no interest in Buffalo "hunting". You could dress up an old milk cow with big horns and get just as much challenge."
While this is likely true in most lower 48 hunts with semi-tame and partly penned animals; it is not the case for Alaskan Buffalo hunting. Look into hunting the wild herds up north and let me know if you still stand behind that generalization.
"I don't begrudge anyone who wants to hunt anything but I have no interest in Buffalo "hunting". You could dress up an old milk cow with big horns and get just as much challenge."
While this is likely true in most lower 48 hunts with semi-tame and partly penned animals; it is not the case for Alaskan Buffalo hunting. Look into hunting the wild herds up north and let me know if you still stand behind that generalization.
wyobohunter
New member
On another note
It cracks me up when people have one or more mall ninja rambo guns (for killing other humans and nothing else I presume) and or will sit there chewing on a beefsteak (they don't count as animals?) talking about how they could "never shoot a beautifull animal such as a deer". I'd rather hang out with a vegetarian; at least he wouldn't be a hypocrit.
It cracks me up when people have one or more mall ninja rambo guns (for killing other humans and nothing else I presume) and or will sit there chewing on a beefsteak (they don't count as animals?) talking about how they could "never shoot a beautifull animal such as a deer". I'd rather hang out with a vegetarian; at least he wouldn't be a hypocrit.
+1 Captain Charlie
Quote; "Maybe, and I don't want to sound melodramatic or such, after years in law enforcement and seeing a lot of death, I came to realize the value of life. Maybe I'm just getting older. I don't know."
I feel the same way, it's not age.
I have tried not to post on this thread, because my views conflict with senior members here on the hunting issue; otherwise I agree most of the time on their other posts.
If a problem exists, two or four legged, then I do what I have to. I first must ask and answer the question," Is is necessary?"
My Grandfather and Uncles taught me to hunt when I was young, continued through high school; then life got fast and busy.
I have an 11 year old son, don't think I will teach him the skill. I can't answer the above question with a, "Yes".
His firearm skills are progressing well. They are more centered around handling proficiency and home/self defense.
I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching him to hunt in this day and era. Maybe I am afraid to remove his "innocence".
I do understand and agree on the "population control" of some species in certain areas, for the benefit of all.
God knows I do love the taste of wild pork & venison, my stomach betrays me.
I feel that hunting in some cases has become a game/sport ( baiting with 50 yard shots from a well stocked tree house, African game shot among the mango /palm trees on someone's 100 acre backyard.
Has the Art/Skill of hunting left us?
Quote; "Maybe, and I don't want to sound melodramatic or such, after years in law enforcement and seeing a lot of death, I came to realize the value of life. Maybe I'm just getting older. I don't know."
I feel the same way, it's not age.
I have tried not to post on this thread, because my views conflict with senior members here on the hunting issue; otherwise I agree most of the time on their other posts.
If a problem exists, two or four legged, then I do what I have to. I first must ask and answer the question," Is is necessary?"
My Grandfather and Uncles taught me to hunt when I was young, continued through high school; then life got fast and busy.
I have an 11 year old son, don't think I will teach him the skill. I can't answer the above question with a, "Yes".
His firearm skills are progressing well. They are more centered around handling proficiency and home/self defense.
I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching him to hunt in this day and era. Maybe I am afraid to remove his "innocence".
I do understand and agree on the "population control" of some species in certain areas, for the benefit of all.
God knows I do love the taste of wild pork & venison, my stomach betrays me.
I feel that hunting in some cases has become a game/sport ( baiting with 50 yard shots from a well stocked tree house, African game shot among the mango /palm trees on someone's 100 acre backyard.
Has the Art/Skill of hunting left us?
First, a few caveats....I'm a "city" guy and have never lived near the woods. I've never had predators attack my cattle or chickens and I've always lived within a few miles of a supermarket. The argument of population control has been explained to me and I do get it. I'm not sure I understand why if there are just SO MANY deer that they need to be thinned, why does it take all day to get lucky and see one wander by? Hmm. You would think they'd be all over the place, wouldn't you? I'm also not sure how you know you're not shooting the strong ones who would have survived the winter. I think I appreciate bowhunters a bit more than LR scope hunters, there just seems to be more skill involved in stalking to get in close. I also appreciate hunters who stalk game who can, and may, kill them instead. That seems more sporting. I mean, shooting a deer with a high powered rifle from 100 yards, where's the sport? Why not just carpet-bomb the woods? I could certainly kill a wild animal who was terrorizing the neighborhood, but that's hunting for a purpose in my mind. And I DO consider animals who are raised like crops (beef, etc) to be different than animals in the wild. I have absolutely NO disrespect for hunters, I was just not raised around it. I also kid my buddy who blew 80 grand on a boat so he can go out and catch a few hundred bucks worth of fish. Like I said, I'm a "city" guy. Popping a bullseye on a target gives me all the satisfaction I need. Maybe one of you guys ought to take me hunting. I'd probably love it and then we could all have a good laugh.
Mike
Mike
Mike, Very well put and I will politely rake you over the proverbial coals...
From bottom to top...
But the time and research planning the trip and taking care of boat and gear is as much fun as the fish fight... And I know how fresh my fish is. Try sushi of yellow fin while it has never been in a cooler and tell me you enjoy it the same in a restaurant following such experience.
Also if you spend some time in areas with limited deer season and meager bag limits you will see higher pressure placed on crops and may even see the starving deer others mentioned or you may hear of the WHOLE HERD exterminations completed by paid sharp shooters so they can burn and bury them as they are diseased. Around me we have a HEAVY population as well as many car accidents caused by deer. But if you get off the paved roads and keep your eyes and ears open, if they are moving, on any given morning or evening you may get to see a dozen or more healthy deer, many of which will have presented shot opportunity if we were hunting.
Not all of us get to live in paradise... I feel for ya! I have never lived out of reach of at least a decent little country store that sells meat but I have been too poor to let out the heat or air conditioning opening their door... As "Hirlau" said above your post "my stomach betrays me"... We have a country store that sells pork from the smaller meat packers who buy pigs from smaller farms and I assure you the crap in a chain supermarket doesn't compare and my wife saves 33% at least.
Then there is the wild pork that tastes even better. Deer IMHO has a flavor all it's own and not everyone will love it but most will find it, at minimum, satisfying....
Thank you for understanding I tried to post this in a respectful way and was not intending to offend you or your opinion in the least...
Brent
From bottom to top...
I would take you up on that... A dogs on hogs no guns hunt... That is about as up close and personal as I can find. Should be fairly easy for you to "justify" as these are are crop damaging feral hogs.
I too am guilty of being an offshore sport fisherman... If I never spend another dime doing it, I will never get my fish under $700 per pound in my whole life if I limit out every trip I go on for free...
But the time and research planning the trip and taking care of boat and gear is as much fun as the fish fight... And I know how fresh my fish is. Try sushi of yellow fin while it has never been in a cooler and tell me you enjoy it the same in a restaurant following such experience.But they are all living creatures. If a bible believer than all the animals are here to provide for man as are the grains of the earth. Ask the cow in line at the slaughter house how they feel as they walk the "green mile".
I feel killing without purpose is wanton waste of wildlife as do most game law makers. But purpose to you is different than to me and my purpose is different than that of a trophy rack hunter. For me, I am able to reduce the food bill at home to the tune of pennies per pound if I get more than 2 deer with one round each... The purpose for the rack hunter is to put a big set of antlers on the wall which requires planning the hunt and restraint in letting the little guy walk. I just hope they eat the meat or give it to someone who will.
Many bow hunters use superior wallets to fund superior spending on superior camo and scent control items as well as high dollar calls. Many rifle hunters stalk to prey. I am one and I usually wear just an old camo shirt from the yard sale table and a pair of jeans. It isn't as easy as you realize to send a bullet on even a short 100 yard trip. It must fly true and not find so much as pine needles in flight that will send it errant.
By strong we are not after the sick or afflicted. It is the genetically strong deer that produce the bigger better quality specimen we try to conserve... Momma ain't gonna be happy if I feed her a sick deer:barf: But a small bodied older deer with small racks produce likewise weak offspring.
The reason you do not see them everywhere you look is due to hunting and other controls. There is an island off the coast of Cali that had elk and hog issues due to no hunting and they are destroying a delicate ecosystem unique to that spot.
Also if you spend some time in areas with limited deer season and meager bag limits you will see higher pressure placed on crops and may even see the starving deer others mentioned or you may hear of the WHOLE HERD exterminations completed by paid sharp shooters so they can burn and bury them as they are diseased. Around me we have a HEAVY population as well as many car accidents caused by deer. But if you get off the paved roads and keep your eyes and ears open, if they are moving, on any given morning or evening you may get to see a dozen or more healthy deer, many of which will have presented shot opportunity if we were hunting.
Ain't life a bugger!!!
Not all of us get to live in paradise... I feel for ya! I have never lived out of reach of at least a decent little country store that sells meat but I have been too poor to let out the heat or air conditioning opening their door... As "Hirlau" said above your post "my stomach betrays me"... We have a country store that sells pork from the smaller meat packers who buy pigs from smaller farms and I assure you the crap in a chain supermarket doesn't compare and my wife saves 33% at least.Then there is the wild pork that tastes even better. Deer IMHO has a flavor all it's own and not everyone will love it but most will find it, at minimum, satisfying....
Thank you for understanding I tried to post this in a respectful way and was not intending to offend you or your opinion in the least...
Brent
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
All generalizations fall apart at some point.
FrankenMauser
New member
Even after more close calls and mock charges than I would ever want... I really have no intention to kill a bear; whatever it's color may be.
Bears aside, I really have no desire to hunt species that don't offer a challenge. Animals that let you walk to within 20 yards of them, in plain sight, just don't appeal to me. It's the hunt that gets me out in the woods.
Bears aside, I really have no desire to hunt species that don't offer a challenge. Animals that let you walk to within 20 yards of them, in plain sight, just don't appeal to me. It's the hunt that gets me out in the woods.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Generalization: Young folks don't have a lot of judgement about killing and can lack discrimination. As they mature, the whole ethics deal becomes part of their hunting. With more age, teaching young folks becomes as important as their own kill. Older folks, then, do less hunting and more teaching and socializing around a campfire.
Part of teaching a youngun about hunting MUST include teaching about ethics. That is an adult's responsibility, a father's duty to his son. "Guns'n'huntin'" are part of the real world, and there is no way to know if a non-hunting 12-year-old will or will not begin hunting later in life. If the ethics are already in place, duty is done.
One of the best reads on this whole subject is Robert Ruark's "The Old Man And The Boy". Very enjoyable vignettes of growing up in the world of hunting and fishing, but more lessons in ethics than any university text ever thought of.
Part of teaching a youngun about hunting MUST include teaching about ethics. That is an adult's responsibility, a father's duty to his son. "Guns'n'huntin'" are part of the real world, and there is no way to know if a non-hunting 12-year-old will or will not begin hunting later in life. If the ethics are already in place, duty is done.
One of the best reads on this whole subject is Robert Ruark's "The Old Man And The Boy". Very enjoyable vignettes of growing up in the world of hunting and fishing, but more lessons in ethics than any university text ever thought of.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
MikeinLA, one thing to remember is that deer spend 365 days a year in the practice of being a deer. Part of their deal is to avoid predators. Wild predators also spend 365 days a year being predators.
People spend only a few days a year being predators.
The population dynamics of deer is a geometric progression. A doe can be impregnated at 1.5 years of age--as can her doe fawns. A doe can easily produce five doe fawns in a breeding lifetime. If there is sufficient cover via thick vegetation, you're back to the 365 days a year thing. Lotsa deer, but hard to find.
About forty or fifty years ago, the Michigan wildlife folks erected a deer-proof fence around 100 acres of thick forest. They made sure that there was a near-maximum population of deer inside, but not above the carryiing capacity of the food supply. They then let hunters in, with controls of numbers and length of hunt. Lots of deer, lots of hunting time. The success rate was around three percent. This was a rather uncommon circumstance, of course, but it serves to show how thick cover can provide security against human predation.
As far as the tools, I've occasionally offered a deal to a doubter: I'll set up a camera rifle. There will be crosshairs in the focal plane of the camera. The trigger of the rifle will control the shutter. Zoom lens of at least 3X. All the doubter has to do is provide me with a print of the crosshairs in the correct location for a kill-shot on a running deer at a hundred yards or thereabouts--and he can collect $1,000. If not, pay me. Simple enough deal: Find Bambi, kick him out of bed, raise up and shoot. Kill Bambi. He's only going 30mph; oughta be easy.
People spend only a few days a year being predators.
The population dynamics of deer is a geometric progression. A doe can be impregnated at 1.5 years of age--as can her doe fawns. A doe can easily produce five doe fawns in a breeding lifetime. If there is sufficient cover via thick vegetation, you're back to the 365 days a year thing. Lotsa deer, but hard to find.
About forty or fifty years ago, the Michigan wildlife folks erected a deer-proof fence around 100 acres of thick forest. They made sure that there was a near-maximum population of deer inside, but not above the carryiing capacity of the food supply. They then let hunters in, with controls of numbers and length of hunt. Lots of deer, lots of hunting time. The success rate was around three percent. This was a rather uncommon circumstance, of course, but it serves to show how thick cover can provide security against human predation.
As far as the tools, I've occasionally offered a deal to a doubter: I'll set up a camera rifle. There will be crosshairs in the focal plane of the camera. The trigger of the rifle will control the shutter. Zoom lens of at least 3X. All the doubter has to do is provide me with a print of the crosshairs in the correct location for a kill-shot on a running deer at a hundred yards or thereabouts--and he can collect $1,000. If not, pay me. Simple enough deal: Find Bambi, kick him out of bed, raise up and shoot. Kill Bambi. He's only going 30mph; oughta be easy.
davlandrum
New member
Hirlau,
Not taking you to task - your choices do not have to match my choices.
There are many things today that you can make the same arguement about. I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching my kids how to change the oil in the car in this day and era. After all, there is always a "Wonder-lube" around that will do it for you for $29.99.
Or change a tire (there is always AAA), or plant corn and beans, or dig potatoes (grocery store), or feed the chickens so we have eggs (and clean the coop).
There is value, at least in my mind, in doing the work to reap the reward. The world is not always about instant gratification or taking the easy way.
For me personally, I am never more alive than while hunting. No job, no cell phone, no static - just me and nature. Sometimes I am good enough to kill an animal, sometimes the animal is better. It is OK either way. And if I do kill a deer or an elk, I have made a choice to take full personal responsiblity for that death to put food on my table.
How many people would eat at McD's, if they had to personally kill the cow and butcher it?
Again, I don't walk in your shoes so this is not judgemental, just my perspective.
Dave
Not taking you to task - your choices do not have to match my choices.
There are many things today that you can make the same arguement about. I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching my kids how to change the oil in the car in this day and era. After all, there is always a "Wonder-lube" around that will do it for you for $29.99.
Or change a tire (there is always AAA), or plant corn and beans, or dig potatoes (grocery store), or feed the chickens so we have eggs (and clean the coop).
There is value, at least in my mind, in doing the work to reap the reward. The world is not always about instant gratification or taking the easy way.
For me personally, I am never more alive than while hunting. No job, no cell phone, no static - just me and nature. Sometimes I am good enough to kill an animal, sometimes the animal is better. It is OK either way. And if I do kill a deer or an elk, I have made a choice to take full personal responsiblity for that death to put food on my table.
How many people would eat at McD's, if they had to personally kill the cow and butcher it?
Again, I don't walk in your shoes so this is not judgemental, just my perspective.
Dave
Quote:
" Not taking you to task - your choices do not have to match my choices.
I don't understand this sentence; how could you take me to task?
There are many things today that you can make the same arguement about. I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching my kids how to change the oil in the car in this day and era. After all, there is always a "Wonder-lube" around that will do it for you for $29.99.
Or change a tire (there is always AAA), or plant corn and beans, or dig potatoes (grocery store), or feed the chickens so we have eggs (and clean the coop).
You obviously missed the point of my post. Changing the oil, tires,or feeding the chickens ( all things my 11 year old has done) have nothing in similarity with the issue of teaching my son to hunt or not.
There is value, at least in my mind, in doing the work to reap the reward. The world is not always about instant gratification or taking the easy way.
Agreed !
For me personally, I am never more alive than while hunting. No job, no cell phone, no static - just me and nature. Sometimes I am good enough to kill an animal, sometimes the animal is better. It is OK either way. And if I do kill a deer or an elk, I have made a choice to take full personal responsiblity for that death to put food on my table.
How could you NOT be fully responsible for the kill, choice or not?
How many people would eat at McD's, if they had to personally kill the cow and butcher it?
Probably not many, mainly because they're too damn lazy; nothing to do with the methods of the kill & butcher of the animal. If anything , I find this generation to be less sensitive/responsible on the issues of life and death. Thank God , most of this generation has no interest in hunting.
Again, I don't walk in your shoes so this is not judgemental, just my perspective."[/B]
Our current environments are probably different, but our "shoes" are stamped with the same manufacturer's label, I bet
John
USMC[/COLOR]
" Not taking you to task - your choices do not have to match my choices.
I don't understand this sentence; how could you take me to task?
There are many things today that you can make the same arguement about. I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching my kids how to change the oil in the car in this day and era. After all, there is always a "Wonder-lube" around that will do it for you for $29.99.
Or change a tire (there is always AAA), or plant corn and beans, or dig potatoes (grocery store), or feed the chickens so we have eggs (and clean the coop).
You obviously missed the point of my post. Changing the oil, tires,or feeding the chickens ( all things my 11 year old has done) have nothing in similarity with the issue of teaching my son to hunt or not.
There is value, at least in my mind, in doing the work to reap the reward. The world is not always about instant gratification or taking the easy way.
Agreed !
For me personally, I am never more alive than while hunting. No job, no cell phone, no static - just me and nature. Sometimes I am good enough to kill an animal, sometimes the animal is better. It is OK either way. And if I do kill a deer or an elk, I have made a choice to take full personal responsiblity for that death to put food on my table.
How could you NOT be fully responsible for the kill, choice or not?
How many people would eat at McD's, if they had to personally kill the cow and butcher it?
Probably not many, mainly because they're too damn lazy; nothing to do with the methods of the kill & butcher of the animal. If anything , I find this generation to be less sensitive/responsible on the issues of life and death. Thank God , most of this generation has no interest in hunting.
Again, I don't walk in your shoes so this is not judgemental, just my perspective."[/B]
Our current environments are probably different, but our "shoes" are stamped with the same manufacturer's label, I bet
John
USMC[/COLOR]
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Okay, we're drifting off-topic. Before posting--whether new or repetitive--go back and read the opening post. Either post in relation to it, or don't post.
Take personal argument to PM or email.
Take personal argument to PM or email.
"Ain't life a bugger!!! Not all of us get to live in paradise... I feel for ya!"
Hi HogDogs. No offense taken as none was intended. As for your above statement, here's a funny story. When my kid was going to Ohio State last fall, I was researching the real estate market there just for fun. I found a 2,500 sq ft house 50 miles outside Columbus on 200 ACRES with a LAKE and a RIVER and all kinds of game, all for the price of my stupid condo in Los Angeles. I gave some serious thought to that, I may end up in "paradise" yet.
Be well, Mike
Hi HogDogs. No offense taken as none was intended. As for your above statement, here's a funny story. When my kid was going to Ohio State last fall, I was researching the real estate market there just for fun. I found a 2,500 sq ft house 50 miles outside Columbus on 200 ACRES with a LAKE and a RIVER and all kinds of game, all for the price of my stupid condo in Los Angeles. I gave some serious thought to that, I may end up in "paradise" yet.
Be well, Mike
I could kill any animal in the right circumstance. For those that haven't been on an African safari and say "poor elephant, or poor giraffe", it's the hunting fees that are guaranteeing their existance and the Africans eat the meat. If I ever see a Labrador duck I'll let it go
wyobohunter
New member
I'd blast a unicorn. I hate unicorns! hehe Oh, and Picachu too.
Inspector3711
New member
I forgot about unicorns.. I kill them and care bears on site. Shoot first ask later.
I killed a kitten once when I was in high school. It was a stray and was horribly sick. My dad didn't want to spend money on the vet and we were afraid what it had might make our cat or dogs sick. So I went out with the old .30-30 that was grandpas and did what I needed to do. If you guys watch Ax Men, I was in the hills around Vernonia, Oregon on a hillside that was being logged. I guess it was 1981 or 1982. That was when I knew there was nothing I couldn't kill if I needed to. It bothered me for a day or so as I recall, being a cute little kitten and all. What I realized before and after was that it had to be done and nobody else was doing it for me. I was dumb enough to feed it so it wouldn't go away.
I'd slaughtered hogs, rabbits, and chickens before. The woods nearest to our house had few birds by the time I moved out and fewer squirrels. I hunted opossums and coons too and had killed a stray that gave the neighbors cat rabies. That kitten was the difficult one though. I suppose since it wasn't wild and able to fend for itself. If you can do that, for me anyway, killing a bad guy or anything else should be no problem.
I killed a kitten once when I was in high school. It was a stray and was horribly sick. My dad didn't want to spend money on the vet and we were afraid what it had might make our cat or dogs sick. So I went out with the old .30-30 that was grandpas and did what I needed to do. If you guys watch Ax Men, I was in the hills around Vernonia, Oregon on a hillside that was being logged. I guess it was 1981 or 1982. That was when I knew there was nothing I couldn't kill if I needed to. It bothered me for a day or so as I recall, being a cute little kitten and all. What I realized before and after was that it had to be done and nobody else was doing it for me. I was dumb enough to feed it so it wouldn't go away.
I'd slaughtered hogs, rabbits, and chickens before. The woods nearest to our house had few birds by the time I moved out and fewer squirrels. I hunted opossums and coons too and had killed a stray that gave the neighbors cat rabies. That kitten was the difficult one though. I suppose since it wasn't wild and able to fend for itself. If you can do that, for me anyway, killing a bad guy or anything else should be no problem.
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