Can't hit anything with my .38, .22 is fine

S

Shrinkmd

New member
I have been shooting about 10 times, and I'm decent at 7-8 yds with my 22 (the black disappears on the target, not many anywhere else) I was at the NRA safety course and did the same with someone else's 22 and their 38.

Now I'm at the range with my S&W 686 and with .38's I can't hit the side of a barn! I pick up my 22, boom in the center, pick up the .38, may as well close my eyes first. It has the red tip sight and I am sort of red/green color blind, where the 617 has a simple black sight. Otherwise they are almost identical, both 4" S&W (617 and 686) with same standard grips. In your hand you can't really tell which is which.

Any ideas? Am I getting too used to the .22 that I'm making lots of anticpation/flinch mistakes? Is a .38 just less "accurate" than the .22? Help! I was pretty happy at the range until I opened up the 686...
 
I would probably say that it is either a flinch, or you have to get used to the grip.

Try dry firing the gun, can you keep it on the target? If you accidently try to fire a 7th shot, does the gun move off target?
 
Try some full boogie .357 magnums in that 686.

I know. It runs contrary to what it might seem. Sometimes going to a very stout load helps me concentrate more.

When I get iffy with a .38 or a 9mm,,, a few rounds of .44magnums gets me back on track a lot faster than anything else.
 
Most guys here will tell you that a 686 is a very accurate revolver. And the .38 special is a rather accurate round.

There is not much recoil or blast in firing a .38 special out of a 686.

Don't know what to tell you except try shooting slow SA first, and note whether you are still grouping badly. Shooting slow SA on a 686 firing .38 specials should yield a very tight group. Ask one of your friends to do it to doublecheck you.

You said you have difficulty seeing the red notch in the 686's front sight. That could also be the problem. In which case you could try painting the front site white (with nail polish or flourescent paint.)
 
The 686 for the most part is quite accurate.I know mine is but for me it seems a little harder to shoot,why I don't know my S&W 66 that is almost the same gun isn't.You never said if your shots are grouping or all over the place.Have you tried to adjust the sight or you may just need better trigger control.If the trigger is a little tight you maybe pulling off target. :confused:
 
Is your gun grouping all in one spot or all over the paper, if it is all over the place it's either you,or your gun doesn't like the ammo you are using.
 
I've got a 4" 686, and I shoot both .357's out of it as well as .38's. Lemme tell ya', the 686 I have is nice and accurate, it shoots better than I do and I'm not bad at all. ;) I'm assuming that the 686 you were shooting is in good repair. Sounds to me like you having anticipation/flinching/pushing problems.

I've got an experiment for you. Get both the 617 and the 686, take them to the range and load them up at the firing line. Now, close you eyes, and have someone give you one of them, and hide the other one under a towel or something, so that you don't know what either of them are. Now, shoot it at the target, not knowing if you are shooting the .22 or the .38/357. See what happens.

Another experiment: take the 686 to the range along with some .38 ammo and some snap caps. Load the cylinder with 1 snap cap and the rest with ammo. Have someone rotate the cylinder so that you don't know which round is the snap cap, and shoot the cylinder. Note what happens when you get to the snap cap -- if you are anticipating or flinching or pushing, you'll see it.

Do you have any snap caps? If not get some, and do some dry firing. Do a lot of dry firing.

Pertaining to the sights -- you say that you are color blind, can you actually see that orange/red front sight in your sight picture, never mind that you might not be able to tell what color it is? If so, it doesn't really matter what color it is, it is still usable. If not, it might as well not be there at all, you need to paint it some color that you actually can see.

Oh, and you may want to get some extra light .38 wadcutter loads next time -- they are both quite accurate and have very light recoil. Assuming, of course, that you weren't using them already. Don't try to take on the heavy loads right from the get-go, work yourself up to them.

And try shooting single action, it sure seems to pull those groups together -- I still have problems holding tight double action groups. It'll help you get your confidence! :)
 
Are the rounds that hit low and to the left (right handed shooter)? If so you may be anticipating the recoil (flinch) its hard to see when you are behind the gun because the recoil masks this problem. Try this, load your cylinder with threee live rounds and three fired cases randomly, spin the cylinder and then close the gun Gently. Now you will not know when a live round is under the hammer or a spent one. When you pull the trigger if its a spent round you will see how badly the gun is being pulled off target by a flinch, and you can work on curing it.
 
Without knowing you its hard to say, but the easiest thing to do is have someone else shoot the gun to see if they have the same problem. That way, you can find out if the gun is at fault, or its something you are doing.
 
I'd suggest what others have -- "skip loading".
This is where you load the gun with one or two snap caps (or expended brass will work) and spin the cylinder, then finish loading with live rounds without looking at the cylinder. Thus, when you fire and the gun goes *click* if the muzzle dips or pulls off target you'll see it and know what you're doing wrong. This is best done single-action at first, then done DA.

Let's suppose you're follow thru is perfect. Then what?

Are the shots grouping?
If not, it might be your ammo. Try a heavier bullet up to 158gr. Or try 148gr Match wadcutters. If your rounds don't group AND you've established that you're not flinching or doing something wrong, have a gunsmith slug the barrel to ensure no bulge or constriction exists.

Grouping, but nowhere near POA
If your shots are groupinig but no where near point of aim, try firing some .357 Magnum rounds. I've discovered that .38 special 125gr JHP's print 2" left of POA in my 2.5" Model 66 while .357 Magnum 125gr JHPs chew up the X ring. If both .38 and .357 are "off target", then adjust your rear sights until you're zeroed in with your most-often used load.
 
Thanks for all the good advice. I will have to go with my dad's friend who has been shooting before I was born. It's probably me. The time before at the range I was putting the 38's dead center, but too low (like off the circle completely low)

I wonder if I've gotten spoiled by the 22? I guess I'll just get a couple of boxes of semi wadcutters and bring my friend. I have been dry fire practicing, and I feel like I'm ok.

Instead of painting the sight, can it be replaced easily with one that is all black? With my color vision problem the tip of the red sight just kind of disappears into the target...it's harder to concentrate on and see. I know it's weird.
 
Sight: Well, I don't know about the newer models, since mine is an old, original one from the early '80's. With mine, it would be very difficult to change it out, and I assume that they didn't change that part of the design over the years. Why not just try using a bit of black tape, at least to try it out first? If that helps, just paint it black, or just use a magic marker.

Oh, and if it is consistently shooting low, you are probably "pushing it", anticipating the recoil. You might want to verify that it isn't the gun by having someone else shoot it.
 
Shrinkmd,

Are you shooting freehand (without any support)???? Also are you shooting one handed or using both hands?

If you are shooting freehand, instead try shoot from a bench with a good rest. This will help to establish the accuracy potential of your gun. If it groups the shots to your satisfaction then it is your shooting form that is probably causing the misses. Things such as anticipating the shot, flinching before the shot due to anticipated recoil or muzzle blast and trigger operation could all be culprits in the cause of the misses.

Use some dry fire practice dummy rounds and work on your trigger pull and grip.

Have another person watch you dry firing with the dummy rounds to critique your shooting form. Have them look carefully at what happens to the end of the barrel while you are squeezing the trigger. Does it drop, raise move left or right....again this is a shooting form issue.

You might also try one of the recognized stances while shooting freehand to keep the shots on target.

Also always make sure to wear hearing & eye protection.
Good luck.
 
Removing variables

Another suggestion - -

Make everything about your L-frame as near like your 617 as possible. If you can shoot the .22 well, it stands to reason you can make a decent showing with the L-frame. :p

Before you go to the trouble of changing out the sights, a dollar bottle of black enamel will (temporarily) change the front sight.

Find some real target loads, the full wadcutters. Or get some loaded up with about 2.5 gr. of Bullseye and 148 gr. HBWC bullets. These are extremely accurate in most revolvers and have very little recoil.

First, sit at the bench with a good rest beneath the frame (not the barrel) and dry fire until you can manage a perfect let off. Then, get a shooting partner to load your cylinder with a mix of empty cases and loaded cartridges. Keep a consistent sight picture, no matter where the shots are hitting. You can adjust sights later.

Hopefully, you'll see your .38 groups improve. You can work up to heavier loads once you resolve the initial issues.

Best of luck - -
Johnny
 
Success!

I was finally back at the range with my 686 and some Winchester whitebox .38 specials. After a few shots to get used to things, I put quite a few into the center of the target at about 25 ft, single action today. I am much happier. That thing is as accurate as the 617.

Now if only the ammo was the same price. I would bring both each trip to the range, but cleaning 2 revolvers is a pain in the butt at the end of the day, especially the 10 shot!
 
Flinch is a reaction to several things- muzzle blast, jump and noise. To see if you are flinching have a friend slip a blank into the gun and see how you react when firing a mixed cylinder- merely leaving a cylinder empty would do the same.

If so, treatment is desenthsitisation (which I have probably misspelt) if your log on is a reflection of your occupation I am sure you can 'treat yourself' with a program of handloads of ever increasing strength until you get used to it.

Good luck.
 
Here are some tips that have helped me with my 686.

1. Try single action firing until you can get used to the recoil and noise. You have to train yourself to not flinch and to keep a steady hand.

2. Practice dry-firing, a lot. Do it while you watch TV or a movie whenever the bad guy shows up (make sure it's unloaded first). This will teach you trigger control. You want to get to the point where you can keep the sights on target during the full double action trigger pull. After you master that, try live double action firing at the range.

3. When at the range, dry-fire on target a few times until you get a feel for trigger control again, and then do it with live ammo. Pull the trigger slow enough so that you force your hand to steady the sights on target. A tight grip is very important.

Good Luck.
 
The flinch is the thing. And, boy, can it be a bugger! I am fighting it big time right now.

I watch the front sight so I am aware of the flinch even without other input. Not a happy camper. SA was my bugaboo with flinch, but now DA is the problem. Yeeesh!
 
practice-practice-practice

may just need some range time..try different ammunition...start close with target and move back...
 
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