Can't get the lead out!

I think that the idea of using the jacketed rounds after shooting a lot of lead nose rounds is the best, time-tested, and TRUE method for getting the lead out. I know dozens of shooters who have done it for decades and never once had damage to their firearms from the practice. No one is saying to shoot a couple thousand LRN rounds and then fire a jacketed round. What we are saying is that after a day of shooting, you can run some jacketed rounds downrange and that will make a world of positive difference in the cleaning chore. And, it will not damage your firearms one bit.

I have a couple of thousand rounds of RNFP lead .38's from Georgia Arms, and I shoot them regularly, a hundred or so at a day at the range, through my Winchester model 94 357/38 lever rifle. I always shoot a few FMJ .38's through the barrel after about 50 rounds of lead, but you can even wait until the end of the day and then shoot a few FMJ rounds.
 
Be very careful about following lead/non-jacketed rounds with jacketed rounds, especially if there is any significant barrel leading. The leading, if it is significant, will act like a partial bore obstruction and can result in a bulged barrel or even a blown up gun in the worst case.

In the February 2010 issue of Shooting Times, there is an article by Allan Jones who has worked as a technician for Speer and did the editing and research work for some of their reloading manuals. He also has a rather long list of impressive credentials that unquestionably qualifies him as a serious firearm/ammunition/reloading expert. He writes that shooting jacketed bullets down a leaded bore is "A Big 'No-No'". The article is in the "Going Ballistic" Column and is entitled: "The Lowdown on Lead Fouling". The applicable text is quoted below.

"How many times have you thought it easier to shoot the lead out with a jacketed bullet? Well, don't even think about it. In extreme cases, this can cause irreparable damage. I've seen revolver barrel throats deformed and thin-walled barrels bulged. Either means a new barrel."​
Some years back someone posted pictures on one of the online forums of a pistol blown up by shooting a box of lead bullet ammunition followed by a single jacketed round.

Beretta goes so far as to put warning against the practice of following unjacketed rounds by jacketed rounds in the owner's manual of some of their semi-auto pistols. Their advice is (with the emphasis from the manual) is as follows:

"DO NOT ever shoot cartridges with jacketed bullets through a barrel previously fired with lead bullets before the bore is thoroughly deleaded."​
I know lots of people do this and get away with it and I'm glad they've been lucky. However the experts agree that it's not a good idea and can result in damaged firearms.
 
I like to use a wet patch on a brush. Yes it wears the brush out but it scrubs and dissolves faster than just one or the other. You can usually scrub the lead out with a patched brush and some elbow grease. rc
 
OK, I accept that experts say not to do the jacketed rounds after lead nose rounds thing to clean the lead out. I accept that. However, as I said in my previous post, I was never saying you should shoots lots and lots of lead nose and then shoot jacketed rounds. I was saying that after some lead rounds, like one box, you can shoot a few jacketed rounds. Maybe shoot 100 lead rounds then a jacketed round. And, while the experts say not to even do one lead round and then a jacketed round, I think they're being too cautious as millions of shooters over 100 years already have done this safely. But no, I did not say to run 1,000 lead rounds down the bore and then shoot an FMJ round.

But while we're on this topic... Why is it that so-called experts and so-called "leaders" are so quick to resort to absolute prohibitions and thus abdicate their supposed positions of leadership and authority? Real knowledge, and real leadership is to describe in general terms what is safe, i.e., how many rounds of lead can be shot and then safely followed by FMJ rounds, etc. THAT takes real knowledge, real research, and exemplifies real leadership. Just issuing absolutes that free the "leader" from having to actually pass along any real insight is decidedly NOT leadership or authority or anything other than a cop out, and I don't really care how many credentials one has if one just drops back and punts instead of trying to run the ball you've been handed. This is not limited to shooting; it permeates our culture.
 
For really stubborn lead removal try a 50/50 mix of Hydrogen Peroxide (the common drug store variety) and white vinegar. Plug the bore, fill it up using a dropper or syringe and let it stand for 5-10 minutes. (Do not let it stand for too long.)

You may get some foaming so protect the barrel's external finish as this solution is not kind to bluing--so take appropriate precautions. Drain and wipe out the black muck that used to be lead and then immediately clean well with bore cleaner.
 
I was saying that after some lead rounds, like one box, you can shoot a few jacketed rounds.
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Some years back a guy blew up his pistol doing exactly that. He put 50 lead rounds down the bore and the pistol blew on the first jacketed round.
Why is it that so-called experts and so-called "leaders" are so quick to resort to absolute prohibitions...
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Because of incidents like the one I just recounted.

And because it's difficult or impossible to quantify when it might be safe and when it might damage the gun. How could one possibly make a general, across the board statement about how many lead rounds can be shot before a jacketed round might cause damage? Bores lead at different rates, barrels have different levels of strength, rifling types vary, different calibers operate at different pressures, within a caliber different loadings will lead the bore differently and will result in different chamber pressures, ambient temperature can increase pressure significantly, etc., etc., etc..

There's simply no way to come up with a good practical method that will always work for any gun in any caliber with any ammunition combination that will allow one to accurately determine when it might be safe and when it's going to blow the barrel.

In response, I would say, why is it that people always think that everything is very simple? Why can't they realize that sometimes things are complicated--sometimes variables differ so much from one situation to the next that there's no way to boil things down to a simple rule of thumb?

Ok, if you want to know how to determine when it's safe and when it's not, here's how you do it.

Get a chamber discharge pressure measuring system for your pistol and perform the following procedure.

Clean the bore thoroughly so that there is no lead in the bore at all.
Fire a single lead round.
Fire a jacketed round and note the chamber pressure.
Clean the bore thoroughly so that there is no lead in the bore at all.
Fire 2 lead rounds
Fire a jacketed round and note the chamber pressure.
Clean the bore thoroughly so that there is no lead in the bore at all.
Fire 3 lead rounds
Fire a jacketed round and note the chamber pressure.
Clean the bore thoroughly so that there is no lead in the bore at all.
Fire 4 lead rounds
Fire a jacketed round and note the chamber pressure.
...​

Repeat these 3 steps increasing the lead round count by 1 each time until you note that the chamber pressure when firing the jacketed round reaches SAAMI maximum for that caliber. At that point, back off the number of lead rounds fired by 10% and consider that the safe amount that you can fire with THAT ammo through THAT gun without cleaning before firing a jacketed round through the bore.

This procedure will have to be repeated for each gun you own since different firearms (even different examples of the same model) can lead their bores at VERY different rates. Also, if you change the ammunition you're using (either the lead or the jacketed) you'll need to repeat the procedure to establish a new baseline.

The bottom line is that you want to shoot jacketed rounds down your leaded bore then go ahead. You've been warned, if you're willing to take the risk then go for it. It's your gun and it will be your hand holding it. Just don't do it next to anyone on the range because even if it's a risk you're willing to take, the person next to you probably won't be all that excited about the possibility of dodging flying parts of your firearm.
For really stubborn lead removal try a 50/50 mix of Hydrogen Peroxide (the common drug store variety) and white vinegar. Plug the bore, fill it up using a dropper or syringe and let it stand for 5-10 minutes. (Do not let it stand for too long.)
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Be careful with the gunk that comes out of the barrel. It contains lead acetate which is toxic and which has the unusual property that it can be absorbed through the skin.
 
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