Can't decide on rifle caliber!
- Thread starter CC268
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The OP sought opinions on his "first rifle" for shooting targets and hunting coyotes and deer. He mentioned that he may eventually want to hunt elk in the future. He did not even hint that he is interested in "tacticool" rifles, match rifles, or stock piling lots of ammo. In my experience a .243 is far better than a .308 for coyote hunting and is fine for deer hunting. I certainly don't object to "tacticool" rifles, match rifles or stockpiling ammo but I would not make such suggestions to someone who had expressed no interest in those subjects.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Order the Savage.
PatientWolf
New member
+1 on Brian's advice. I have a Savage 110C in .243 and a Ruger American in .308. While there is certainly nothing wrong with the RA, I just like the action and feel of the Savage better.
Theohazard
New member
CC268, if you're getting conflicting information between this and any other general firearm forum, I would recommend going with this forum every day of the week and twice on Sunday: The expertise and experience on this forum is extremely impressive, especially considering all the bad information you can find online. Sure, sometimes people post bad info on here, but it's corrected very quickly. And any time there is an overwhelming consensus here on any subject, you can bank on that information being good, especially when the moderators are agreeing with it; the mods here are very knowledgeable.
.308 is a good round and it's available everywhere, but it's a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type round; .243 will be better suited for what you're looking to hunt, hands down. And .243 is not exactly a rare cartridge; you should still have no trouble finding it anywhere.
.308 is a good round and it's available everywhere, but it's a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type round; .243 will be better suited for what you're looking to hunt, hands down. And .243 is not exactly a rare cartridge; you should still have no trouble finding it anywhere.
globemaster3
New member
So horselips, as a realist I fall in where? 
Your recommendations are nowhere suitable for the task the OP presented.
To the OP, Savage makes a fine rifle. The RAR is getting some great reviews and can possibly be bought for less of your college $. Lastly, don't rule out Remington with a 700. Their SPS line can be had for a similar price point, and as your financial situation improves after college, you can get into more diversity in your arsenal.
For your situation, I would discount the M1A, H&K 91/PTR 91, or CETME advice. For your purposes, you'll be much better served by a good bolt action.
Your recommendations are nowhere suitable for the task the OP presented.
To the OP, Savage makes a fine rifle. The RAR is getting some great reviews and can possibly be bought for less of your college $. Lastly, don't rule out Remington with a 700. Their SPS line can be had for a similar price point, and as your financial situation improves after college, you can get into more diversity in your arsenal.
For your situation, I would discount the M1A, H&K 91/PTR 91, or CETME advice. For your purposes, you'll be much better served by a good bolt action.
Theohazard
New member
I agree with globemaster3: CC268 didn't say he's looking for a SHTF rifle with a common military caliber, he said he's looking for a rifle for hunting deer and coyotes. A .243 is better for that purpose in my (and many other people's) opinion.horselips said:
If he asked for one rifle that can do EVERYTHING that's chambered in a round found in most Western military arsenals so you're more likely to find ammo during the end of the world, then .308 is a good choice. But that's not what he asked for.
bamaranger
New member
leery
If you have NEVER shot a .308, and are leery of the recoil, I am thinking you're a relatively new shooter. Often recoil is a perceived matter. To a new shooter, a .308 sporter may be a bit much. Conversely, bamaboy, a lanky 6'1 and maybe 155-160 lbs (not a beefy fella) with a pocket full of shells, has been shooting since a very young age and handle's .308 with ease.
The .308 is not really a bruiser, but it is not a ***** cat either. It will kick some, and the light price point rifles you are considering will likely provide the most felt recoil. No point in starting out w/ to much rifle and developing bad habits.
For a new shooter, the .243 will do most of what you describe well, and give you a good taste of a HP rifles capabilities. And it will not intimidate you in the process. You can always trade up to a .308 later.
I shoot .308 a good bit. When I shoot .243, I'm always amazed at how mild it feels.
If you have NEVER shot a .308, and are leery of the recoil, I am thinking you're a relatively new shooter. Often recoil is a perceived matter. To a new shooter, a .308 sporter may be a bit much. Conversely, bamaboy, a lanky 6'1 and maybe 155-160 lbs (not a beefy fella) with a pocket full of shells, has been shooting since a very young age and handle's .308 with ease.
The .308 is not really a bruiser, but it is not a ***** cat either. It will kick some, and the light price point rifles you are considering will likely provide the most felt recoil. No point in starting out w/ to much rifle and developing bad habits.
For a new shooter, the .243 will do most of what you describe well, and give you a good taste of a HP rifles capabilities. And it will not intimidate you in the process. You can always trade up to a .308 later.
I shoot .308 a good bit. When I shoot .243, I'm always amazed at how mild it feels.
bamaranger
New member
well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, kitty cat. Man, I never even considered the inference. Sorry.
OK, kitty cat. Man, I never even considered the inference. Sorry.
CC268 is looking for his first rifle. He's new at this. Just as we all were new at it at one time. Right now, he wants to hunt deer and coyote. Fine. A .243 will suffice. And so what? A .308 will do just as good a job.
And when CC268 gets a lot more experience, and his needs or wants grow and develop further? As they inevitably will. As all of ours have over the years. The unsurpassed versatility of the .308 will take him to any level he wants to reach. Any game, anywhere in the this hemisphere and, if he travels, lots of the game found in the other one.
And even if CC268 never has any ambition to do anything else except hunt deer and coyote, that's fine too. A .308 will still serve him just as well as a .243and with the much lower cost of mil-surp and Russian ammunition, he'll be able to do a lot more practicing for a lot less money. I don't suppose CC268 is into reloading yet, so, for commercial .243 ammo he'll be paying between $1 and $2 dollars every time he pulls the trigger. Practice ammo, even decent hunting ammo in .308 can be found for half a buck a round, often for even less. We don't know CC268's financial resources, or if money matters, but over time, the dollars saved on ammo can be better spent on gear and accessories.
For a first rifle, especially if that first rifle may be, or, for the time being, must be, the only rifle, there's nothing better than a .308, and nothing as flexible or versatile or less costly to shoot and enjoy.
And when CC268 gets a lot more experience, and his needs or wants grow and develop further? As they inevitably will. As all of ours have over the years. The unsurpassed versatility of the .308 will take him to any level he wants to reach. Any game, anywhere in the this hemisphere and, if he travels, lots of the game found in the other one.
And even if CC268 never has any ambition to do anything else except hunt deer and coyote, that's fine too. A .308 will still serve him just as well as a .243and with the much lower cost of mil-surp and Russian ammunition, he'll be able to do a lot more practicing for a lot less money. I don't suppose CC268 is into reloading yet, so, for commercial .243 ammo he'll be paying between $1 and $2 dollars every time he pulls the trigger. Practice ammo, even decent hunting ammo in .308 can be found for half a buck a round, often for even less. We don't know CC268's financial resources, or if money matters, but over time, the dollars saved on ammo can be better spent on gear and accessories.
For a first rifle, especially if that first rifle may be, or, for the time being, must be, the only rifle, there's nothing better than a .308, and nothing as flexible or versatile or less costly to shoot and enjoy.
Theohazard
New member
No, a .243 will do that specific job better that a .308. It shoots a lot flatter than a .308 so it will be better for hunting; having a flatter-shooting cartridge when hunting is a big advantage considering the ranges are variable and often unknown.horselips said:
Once again, the advantages of the .308 that you're touting are for one rifle that can do everything. But that's not what he asked for.
At 200 yards, with a 100 yard zero, a .243 will drop (depending on bullet weight) between ~1.6 and 2 inches. A .308 with a 150 grain bullet will drop ~3.5 inches. Whoopee - a whole inch or two difference. With a lighter bullet, like a 125 grain, that difference can be cut even more. Most deer are taken at less than 200 yards often at less than 100 yards - that's why .30-30 rifles are still popular. Learning and managing holdover for the usual distances is no big deal.
Theohazard
New member
An inch or two difference in each direction can matter, especially with smaller animals like coyotes. And that difference will get bigger at longer ranges.horselips said:
Horselips, your argument is still about which is the better all-around rifle cartridge. And I'll agree with you that the .308 is a better all-around rifle cartridge than the .243. But for the SPECIFIC job of hunting deer and coyotes the .243 is better. Hands down. And the recoil is less too, which is another plus.
globemaster3
New member
Bama, now that was funny!
. Gotta love the filter!
To the OP, there is a lot of wisdom here and I applaud your effort to seek advice.
Recoil can be a very subjective topic, as perceived recoil is difficult to lay a value on. We can be objective and based on the weight of the rifle, the cartridge, bullet weight, etc and tell you the free recoil energy, but stock design, recoil pad selection, stock fit to your body, and your tolerance takes the objective data and turns it on its ear.
I own a .308 bolt and a .243 bolt. I will tell you shooting 165 gr Hornady interlocks on the .308 kicks a lot more than the .243 shooting 95 gr Winchester Silver Tips. I can shoot my .308 on the bench and do well, but enjoy shooting the .243 on the bench.
Without knowing you or your tolerances, us choosing the .243 is our way of betting that your experience will be better in terms of reduced recoil. All of us will tell you the key to making good shots is practice, and you are much more likely to practice if you enjoy shooting the rifle.
There is also truth to the .308 argument about cheaper milsurp ammo. But who cares if it's cheap if you don't like the recoil of the rifle? All we want to do is set you up for success in the long run.
As for your college budget, I've been there. I stretched my 4-year degree into 5, changed majors a few times, but mostly worked at a now defunct sporting goods store to maximize the discount on ammo, shooting and fishing gear.
And do some research on the rifle. There are other cost conscious choices ou there like the Savage Axis (see the current thread running on it), H&R Handi Rifles, etc. We can help guide you through it with the wisdom of folks who own or have owned the various rifles.
. Gotta love the filter!To the OP, there is a lot of wisdom here and I applaud your effort to seek advice.
Recoil can be a very subjective topic, as perceived recoil is difficult to lay a value on. We can be objective and based on the weight of the rifle, the cartridge, bullet weight, etc and tell you the free recoil energy, but stock design, recoil pad selection, stock fit to your body, and your tolerance takes the objective data and turns it on its ear.
I own a .308 bolt and a .243 bolt. I will tell you shooting 165 gr Hornady interlocks on the .308 kicks a lot more than the .243 shooting 95 gr Winchester Silver Tips. I can shoot my .308 on the bench and do well, but enjoy shooting the .243 on the bench.
Without knowing you or your tolerances, us choosing the .243 is our way of betting that your experience will be better in terms of reduced recoil. All of us will tell you the key to making good shots is practice, and you are much more likely to practice if you enjoy shooting the rifle.
There is also truth to the .308 argument about cheaper milsurp ammo. But who cares if it's cheap if you don't like the recoil of the rifle? All we want to do is set you up for success in the long run.
As for your college budget, I've been there. I stretched my 4-year degree into 5, changed majors a few times, but mostly worked at a now defunct sporting goods store to maximize the discount on ammo, shooting and fishing gear.
And do some research on the rifle. There are other cost conscious choices ou there like the Savage Axis (see the current thread running on it), H&R Handi Rifles, etc. We can help guide you through it with the wisdom of folks who own or have owned the various rifles.
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Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Here's what I'd be buying if I were in your shoes.
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/78115/savage_11_hunter_xp_243_bushnell
Buy a Boyds stock for it, if the budget allows. If not, it's a great gun gun anyway.
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/78115/savage_11_hunter_xp_243_bushnell
Buy a Boyds stock for it, if the budget allows. If not, it's a great gun gun anyway.
Right now, .308 ammo is one of the hardest cartridges to find in stores. The .243 ammo is much more available and in greater choices.
My first rifle was a .30-06 Savage 110, back around 1960. It kicked the hell out of me and made me flinch when target shooting. My second rifle was a Remington 700 in .22-250 Rem. It was fun, accurate, but had limitations on critters larger than coyotes. It won MANY turkey shoots!
I now have two .243 Win rifles and gave another to my grandson. I use it more than any other CF cartridge and love shooting it. Wish I'd found the cartridge first, but went with what my other buddies got (and handloaded for).
I'd probably NOT have gotten the .22-250 knowing what I do now, but eventually would have gotten a .30-06 or .270 Win at some point.
My first rifle was a .30-06 Savage 110, back around 1960. It kicked the hell out of me and made me flinch when target shooting. My second rifle was a Remington 700 in .22-250 Rem. It was fun, accurate, but had limitations on critters larger than coyotes. It won MANY turkey shoots!
I now have two .243 Win rifles and gave another to my grandson. I use it more than any other CF cartridge and love shooting it. Wish I'd found the cartridge first, but went with what my other buddies got (and handloaded for).
I'd probably NOT have gotten the .22-250 knowing what I do now, but eventually would have gotten a .30-06 or .270 Win at some point.
Alright well obviously the general consensus here is the .243. I am going to Bass Pro, maybe Cabelas, or Sportsmans to see what they have for .243's. I know BPS has no Savage 11's at all in the .243 and I am sure they are probably all sold out at Cabelas and Sportsmans too, but I will check. Is there another rifle out there that would be good in .243 besides the Savage 11?
buckhorn_cortez
New member
I use a 6mm Remington (.243 with a longer neck) and have a .308, plus rifles in much larger calibers. It's an interesting choice between the calibers being discussed. You can down load the .308 with lighter weight bullets like 110 grains that is approaching the heaviest bullet you can use in .243. No matter - the recoil is going to be greater in .308 than the .243.
However, if you put a muzzle brake on a .308, the felt recoil is slightly less than a .243 - so it is possible to reduce the .308 recoil to .243 level if you wan to do some modification to the rifle.
I have a muzzle brake on my .308 specifically because I'm no longer supposed to shoot heavy recoiling guns - and it works. I can happily shoot a hundred rounds out of a .308 with no ill effects.
But, given the OP's description of how he wants to use the rifle - I'd have to recommend the .243 because the 6mm size cartridges are just so easy to shoot - and for coyote would be far better. With a little load development, you can get a 70 grain bullet in the 3600 feet-per-second range - making it a much flatter shooting round than a .308 in the 400-600 yard range.
There is no argument that if the OP wants an all-around cartridge to take him to the next level of hunting or even target shooting (to 1,000 yards) that the .308 would be a better choice, but for a first rifle that will get him into the field and having fun - I'd still recommend the .243.
However, if you put a muzzle brake on a .308, the felt recoil is slightly less than a .243 - so it is possible to reduce the .308 recoil to .243 level if you wan to do some modification to the rifle.
I have a muzzle brake on my .308 specifically because I'm no longer supposed to shoot heavy recoiling guns - and it works. I can happily shoot a hundred rounds out of a .308 with no ill effects.
But, given the OP's description of how he wants to use the rifle - I'd have to recommend the .243 because the 6mm size cartridges are just so easy to shoot - and for coyote would be far better. With a little load development, you can get a 70 grain bullet in the 3600 feet-per-second range - making it a much flatter shooting round than a .308 in the 400-600 yard range.
There is no argument that if the OP wants an all-around cartridge to take him to the next level of hunting or even target shooting (to 1,000 yards) that the .308 would be a better choice, but for a first rifle that will get him into the field and having fun - I'd still recommend the .243.
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