Can you defend yourself against a LEO?

T

TargetTerror

New member
I've been mulling over the legal aspects of this question for a while, and was wondering what everyone thought on the matter.

My question is, could you ever be considered justified in defending yourself against a LEO? I'm not talking about cases where you don't want a ticket, or to get arrested, etc, but of the .1% cases where it is obvious that the LEO is out of line and you feel you are at risk of great bodily harm or death. Ie, Rodney King being beaten beyond what was necessary for an arrest, or the case where two NYC cops sodomized a suspect with a broom.

If it was anyone other than a LEO doing this to you, no one would bat an eye if you fought back or shot them. Does it matter that they are wearing a badge? (I know a lot of this will depend on jurisdictions, but I'm curious for any input)
 
make sure..........

you either win the fight (and leave no DNA) or someone has it on film, otherwise it's hard to win in court with a court appointed hack going against LEO. BTDT

Okie out
 
I guess when it comes down to it some of you here have allready said it..... Better to be hung by 12 than carried by 6..or something like that.
 
This comes from a cop, not a lawyer.

Yes, you are legally entitled to defend yourself against excessive force, or an unlawful arrest. However, you better be damn sure you are right, because if you are not, there will be hell to pay. It does happen, we do make mistakes, and there are some of us that should not be behind a badge.

This being said, if it were me, Id take the lumps from the cops, and sue them in civil court.


By the way, other cops don't seem to like me much sometimes when I speak like this. I cannot figure out why....
 
liliysdad,
Being from the same side of the tracks,We both know that there is good and bad in all professions and ours is know different.I am far from a liberal and do believe in an eye for an eye but some do take it too far.That being said I would agree with your statement.

It does happen, we do make mistakes, and there are some of us that should not be behind a badge.

This being said, if it were me, Id take the lumps from the cops, and sue them in civil court.
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A number of years ago, perhaps twenty, a bunch of guys in camo bottoms and black teeshirts started to sneek up on my house. I live out in the boondocks.

To make a long story short, it was a wrong address call.

I had several guests that day and one of them spotted these guys stalking up the hill to the house.

All of us armed up and I called the Sheriff at his home. After I described the "invaders" he said Holy #$%^, those are my guys. So all of his guys had shotguns, no cell phones and no radio with dispatch.

So the Sheriff and I are on the phone. "What the Hell do you want me to do Tom?" Well Tom has a standown code which I hollored out the window.

The Deputies then stood down.

Scary, yes. No shots fired.
 
Can you defend yourself against a LEO?
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Can you? Well, let's assume the answer is this:

No you can't. You have to let them kill you. If you resist in any way, you will wind up in jail.:confused:



From that, to say "no you can't" is absurd. If you are in danger because two men are trying to harm you, fight back! The fact that they have a piece of metal on their shirts, does not give them a right to kill or beat a man without cause.

Once the battle is over, you are then alive to explain yourself in court.

You might very well have to put up as hard a fight in court as you did against the badge abusers who attacked you. BUT, as has been said numerous times in here, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
 
Recall that all the Branch Davidians who were charged with murder of federal officers were aquited at trial. Self defense.
 
This being said, if it were me, Id take the lumps from the cops, and sue them in civil court.
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I think this is a good answer. I took this strategy once and the results were far far better than fighting with the officers. After being beat in the head with a flashlight and handcuffed I remained semi conscious which required an ambulance ride and an examination by a doctor which served as great documentation of my injuries. Went through the booking process, made my first appearance with a lawyer who is known all over the state as the lawyers lawyer. I plead not guilty. By the time my second appearance rolled around the Chief of Police who attacked me had been terminated and was living 1500 miles away...the criminal charge was dismissed when the other officers on the scene declined to pursue the charge. About a year later I settled my civil case in return for a five figure apology.

All this said it is important to state that the Chief was a mental case, I had done absolutely nothing illegal at all. He didn't like that I was lawfully carrying a gun in 'his town' without notifying him of my presence. I have had hundreds if not thousands of incidents involving LEOs, this is the only time I have ever been treated unfairly by a LEO.

Am I glad it happened? No. Was the result satisfying? absolutely.

If I had resisted, fought or anything else their actions may have been justified.

My advise would be 'think like a opossum', let them dig their own hole, then scare them to death with the lawyer you choose to appear with.
 
The one possible scenario related to this thread that scares me is the wrong door "no knock" warrant. What happens when a bunch of black clad guys kick your door in in the middle of the night with guns? Hopefully no shots are fired and the whole mess is sorted out without much violence, but what happens if it isn't? What happens if the homeowner doesn't realize it's cops and not BG's knocking down his door? What happens if shots are fired?
 
This being said, if it were me, Id take the lumps from the cops, and sue them in civil court
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I understand the reasoning here. But, this is IF you come out of it alive. Resisting might be the only way you can stay alive. (like another poster put it, better be sure you win the fight) Also, even if you aren't killed, there are other things that might happen if you don't resist. You could end up permenantly crippled or with a serious brain injury (especially if you are constantly clubbed over the head with a flashlight or night stick)
The tempting response to this is that your beating will be a lot worse if you do resist.

I'm not saying what I would or wouldn't do, it all depends on what is going on in each given sitution, but submitting to an uncalled for beating doesn't seem like a wise answer.

Pipoman,
where in the world was this? 1930 Chicago? Sounds like the sort of corrupt thugery out of The Untouchables. "his town" He just just proceeded beat you after you were disarmed and made no hostile move?
All my encounters with LEOs (been about 6) since getting my CHL have been positive. The CHL and gun even made a good conversation piece (nice pun) in some cases. Hope I never come across anything like you experienced.
 
I think the first point made shoud be emphasized.
Yes, you have the right. But even if you are justified, the odds are stacked against you in court - you may be right be still end up in prison. Best to have a lot of cameras rolling before the incident starts.
 
You hurting a cop equals long prison term. Cop hurting you for no reason whatsoever equals a good chuckle down at the station. Cops always win. It's a messed up system. It's the best in the entire world. But still very messed up. And don't you dare mess with a cop dog. Somehow, they are the same as humans in copworld.
 
I seem to remember a story a few years ago about a guy who shot a LEO during a warrant service. The officer didn't announce as he ran in and the guy, who had been having trouble with vandals and a few home invasions, fired. He was acquitted. However, he violated one of the first laws of firearms: identify the target. The officer was in uniform and the home was lit.
 
The best advice I can give is to comply with the officer...dont try to be a jailhouse lawyer. If he is in the wrong there will be time to file a complaint later.
 
Resisting might be the only way you can stay alive.
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I don't see how resisting would help. It seems to me it would only justify a harsher beating. Unless confronted by a totally corrupt LEO agency (unlikely), assuming there are more than 1 or 2 officers present someone will ultimately tell the truth or will be caught in inconsistencies in accounts.

Pipoman,
where in the world was this? 1930 Chicago? Sounds like the sort of corrupt thugery out of The Untouchables. "his town" He just just proceeded beat you after you were disarmed and made no hostile move?
All my encounters with LEOs (been about 6) since getting my CHL have been positive. The CHL and gun even made a good conversation piece (nice pun) in some cases. Hope I never come across anything like you experienced.
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This was in Maize Kansas. The 'his town' quote is accurate there were some other classics used too. The first thing I did when I was approached was provide my PI license and concealed carry info. At this point he should have recorded my info (or not) and left me alone. Instead he ordered me out of the car which I did, frisked me and disarmed me which I didn't resist, then commenced to hit me with his flashlight. He was so mad his face was beet red and he was spitting when he talked. I never raised my voice or did anything at all to anger him. I had a couple of friends who are also top notch licensed investigators who began conducting interviews and checking his background. It was shocking he could get a job as mall security with his record of irrational behavior before being hired as Chief.

Another classic while seated in his office waiting for an ambulance, 'is all you would have had to do to avoid this would have been to apologized for not notifying me of your presence...but its too late for that now'.

Another classic was 'my dad retired after ___ years in LE and I intend to do the same...I will not risk my safety because a wannabe thinks he can go anyplace he feels while armed'. Well since this incident I have kept track of this guys movements a little. When he went to work at a new department I made sure to forward choice parts of my investigation to local defense attys. I think it must have become hard for him to testify because he is now a non-LEO city worker in a tiny southern town. So much for retiring a LEO.:( :D

His official report stated he acted this way because of "recent stories in the newspaper of people sneaking into government buildings in Washington D.C. with forged credentials therefore he thought mine were forgeries". :rolleyes:

Again, I have no ill will toward LEO because if this incident at all, I'm just glad he didn't do any permanent damage.
 
There have been many cases of homeowners shooting cops for mistakenly entering their homes

There was a case discussed either here or at THR that involved a homeowner being woken up in the middle of the night by police apparently trying to enter his home because KKK was written on his car and the dog house had footprints on it.
Their car had been hit by a rock earlier and they saw those pieces of evidence as probable cause to enter his home.

He fired several times at them through a glass door, hitting one officer

He was cleared, but I never heard if the PD had to replace his door

So no the cops don't always win
 
liliysdad said:
By the way, other cops don't seem to like me much sometimes when I speak like this. I cannot figure out why....
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We (non-cops) need more cops like you doing that job.
 
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