Can someone help me understand these?

Exit_Wound

New member
This might be another stupid question, but why does the shrouded hammer gun exist?

Are you ever supposed to fire it in single action? If so, is there a different technique you use to pull back the shrouded hammer, or is it supposed to fight you the whole way?

Would it be a good idea to shoot single action in self defense anyway? (The first shot, anyway) I heard something or other about how there are legal implications once you pull back the hammer....

It seems to me that this design incorporates the virtual inability to cock the hammer and fire single action, while adding the real concern of the exposed mechanism that could catch on clothing or just get debris in there and increasing the chance of failure... Seems like it's just the worst of both worlds.

I might just not understand it.. Why wouldn't you either conceal the hammer, or add a small lever that would make it practical to use?

All of that being said, Here is a picture of my wife's snubby and she's very dear to my heart :-)

attachment.php


Sending her back to Taurus to get some things worked out. (The snubby, not the wife)
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0431.JPG
    IMG_0431.JPG
    37.4 KB · Views: 475
Last edited:
The shrouded hammer revolver is intended for use in concealed carry where a hammer would be in danger of snagging on clothing. It is intended to be fired primarily double action, but it has the advantage over a "hammerless" (fully concealed hammer) in that it CAN be fired single action if necessary.

Jim
 
My point exactly...

In theory it can be fired single action, but remember, in theory communism works.

It really doesn't seem to apply in a
Self defense situation... If its a situation whee it might snag, under stress like that, there's no way you can pull that hammer.

If its meant to be DA why add that little nub that can itself get caught, or obstructed with debris...

Know what I mean?
 
That little hammer nub would be very difficult to get caught on something, and you wouldn't use the single action in a defensive situation. It shouldn't be too tough to use in single action, unless there's a problem with the gun. You'd most likely shoot it single action at the range only.
 
Last edited:
It's a Taurus. That should tell you everything you need to know. Sending it back to the factory for some work you say? Gee, how unusual...

I agree the design has no merit and its a marketing design, nothing more.
 
I have a genuine S&W Bodyguard with shrouded hammer.
It goes back to the old Chic Gaylord idea that you might have to make a long shot. And in those days, DA was for only the closest emergency.

It works better in theory than when shooting.
 
I fired enough DA that I seldom used SA even on the range; I could shoot as well or better double action. Still, I can see that some folks would like to have the option, and that is what those shrouded hammer guns were intended to do.

Colt never produced either a "hammerless" or a shrouded hammer revolver, but they did offer a shroud as a factory option, so there was some demand from Colt users as well.

Jim
 
So...

Again, in theory it sounds great, but if its only real practical use is DA, why not just house the whole thing? Fewer moving parts exposed diminishes possible points failure, no?

However slim the chance that that little nub will watch on something, that variable is eliminated if it was housed
Entirely...

As far as wanting SA for accuracy at a greater distance, I don't know that a snub nose would be effective anyway, right?

Again, it sounds good in theory, I just feel like the trade off was increasing the theoretical ability to be more accurate with SA (when in fact it's intended to be a DAO), and it's impractical to implement for self defense anyway...

Still think its a cool aesthetic, and a cool idea, just not convinced there's a real application...
 
What does your wife think of it? It's her gun after all. I see your point, and don't care for the design myself, but if she likes it, there you go.

Sounds like a fine excuse to get a 642, Taurus CIA or whatever Charter calls their version for yourself. ;)
 
I recall seeing a small revolver that had the hammer spur removed so that there was nothing to snag. No shroud, either. The outline was smooth (though, if the hammer was back while drawing from a pocket, it COULD snag).

The hammer nose was a little bit taller than the frame (1/16" or so) and serrated so that a shooter COULD thumb the hammer back if single action was desired.

I do not know if this configuration was a factory option or a custom-shaped hammer, but it was on an SP-101 from Ruger and appeared to be perfectly done for 1) snag-free draw from concealment 2) nice-looking and 3) usable for single-action work if a deliberate, slow, aimed shot were desired.

Since the hammer stuck up a bit higher than the frame, snagging while putting the gun INTO the pocket might be possible, but the shape of it made snagging while drawing a lot less likely than if a normal spur were there. But cocking for single action was obviously a LOT easier than on any of the guns shown in pictures I have seen here or elsewhere.


Lost Sheep
 
It's a Taurus. That should tell you everything you need to know. Sending it back to the factory for some work you say? Gee, how unusual...

I agree the design has no merit and its a marketing design, nothing more.

The original concealed hammer J frame gun was designed by S&W. It was, as James K mentioned, meant to be snag free if fired from a pocket. S&W even advanced a hammerless design where the hammer was within the frame and entirely concealed by it.

The gun as produced by Taurus can be uncocked. Point it in a safe direction, put the thumb on the hammer to hold it back and apply pressure on the trigger. The thumb will feel the sear release the hammer. Let it go forward slightly so it will stay disengaged. Remove the finger from the trigger and then slowly lower the hammer. It is important to remove the finger from the trigger will allow the hammer block to rise and intercept the hammer (should the thumb slip).
 
why does the shrouded hammer gun exist?
For a civilian concealed carry gun, it should not. A civilian would be better off/just as well served with a gun with a spurless hammer. In short, there is no legitimate reason for a civilian to cock the hammer of a double-action defensive revolver. The only use I can see for a shrouded hammer (but still cock-able), gun is for a policeman who may get into a gunfight with someone who is firing from cover.
Nevertheless, a shrouded hammer gun has only the superfluous "hump" as a negative (which can be ignored), for concealed carry while at the same time not having the liability of a standard spurred hammer. So, if your wife can tolerate the camel hump, I see no problem with her/your choice of gun.
 
Your wife's revolver is a knock-off of the currently produced S&W model 638.

They also make a model 438, same revolver in blue color (same alloy/steel combination manufacture, however).

Both of these are modern iterations of the S&W model 38 which was introduced in the mid 1950s as a version of the "Airweight Bodyguard" and was discontinued for a while (not sure of the dates) before being re-invented as the 638.

I have both a near-new 438 and a 70s-vintage model 38. I think the blued ones are quite attractive if you replace the original skinny wood grips with something more modern-looking (The new 438s and 638s come with better grips than the old wood ones). Here's a shot of my 1972-built M38:

attachment.php


As far as "long shots" are concerned, there's nothing inherently inaccurate in a short barrel. It just takes more practice and, perhaps, more skill to make it work.

I love my bodyguards, both of 'em, and I like the option of SA.

I feel it's quite legitimate to use the SA option for practicing the "long shots".

No offense, dahermit, but I am a civilian as, I believe, are the vast majority of policemen.

W.
 
Last edited:
This might be another stupid question, but why does the shrouded hammer gun exist?

Seems like it's just the worst of both worlds.

All of that being said, Here is a picture of my wife's snubby...

We have all made decisions and then reconsidered them at a later date. Sometimes it's things we didn't buy and later wish we had, other times we buy things and wonder what we were thinking of...

You obviously saw this gun and presumably knew about the semi-concealed hammer, and knowing that you still decided to purchase it.

What were your thoughts about this action or design at that time?

My point is, you clearly liked the gun enough to buy it and still like it enough to keep it. I think this design is no worse than a shrouded hammer design or a traditional spurred hammer design. In fact, for certain circumstances it has it's own advantages.

If only it wasn't a Taurus...
 
NOt everone is able to draw from a pocket in time to use the weapon. Many unpleasant events have boiled down to the winner, survivor, having been able to shoot through a coat pocket.
 
Tunnel vision and selective memory....

Why do shrouded hammer guns exist? Why, for convenience, of course.

First off, remember that, generally, revolver designs date from a much earlier time, and reflect earlier preferences, and beliefs. Even the most "modern" revolvers are current work ups of old designs, and those earlier designs were influenced by their times and attitudes.

Believe it or not, there was a time (and it was a long time) that the bulk of DA revolver owners believed in SA shooting for sport, recreation, and practice, and that the DA function of their guns was for close range emergency use, only.

interestingly enough, today we have people that take nearly the opposite position, believing that DA guns should only be shot DA and the SA function has no place on a "defensive" revolver.

WE tend to suffer from tunnel vision in these matters, focusing on the main, or primary intended use, and mode of use, forgetting that lots of people use their guns in other ways.

It seems to me that this design incorporates the virtual inability to cock the hammer and fire single action, while adding the real concern of the exposed mechanism that could catch on clothing or just get debris in there and increasing the chance of failure... Seems like it's just the worst of both worlds.

I might just not understand it.. Why wouldn't you either conceal the hammer, or add a small lever that would make it practical to use?
Shrouded hammer guns are not the "worst of both worlds", they are actually an intelligent compromise. Compared to the regular revolver, the shroud reduces the chances of the hammer spur snagging on clothing during the draw, and reduces the chances of a malfunction (due to the hammer being caught or debris getting in the mechanism if the gun is fired from inside a pocket.

No, the hammer isn't supposed to "fight you" the whole way. It is supposed to cock exactly like every other revolver. If yours doesn't, it needs service.

A concealed hammer gun does not give you the ability to fire the gun SA. Not a big deal to some people, but a big deal to others. A shrouded hammer allows for safe manipulation of the hammer for SA shooting should the shooter so desire. Today's experts all tell us how DA can be mastered, can be shot accurately, and should be the way you shoot a revolver in a close range defensive situation. And, they are right. All these things can be done, and can be learned to be done by just about everyone with the desire to do so.

BUT, not everyone does learn, or desires to. The simple fact is that of all of our defensive handguns, 99.9%+ of the rounds shot through them are not shot in a self defense situation. They are shot in practice of some kind, structured training, or just casual practice plinking. A shrouded hammer gun has the same utility as a standard (non shrouded) gun. A concealed hammer gun does not have the same range of options.

Most people, even today, learn to shoot revolvers single action at first. Because the light, short, crisp trigger pull (compared to the DA trigger pull) enhances the beginner's ability to actually put rounds on target. This relatively simple thing can be the difference between someone who develops an active interest in shooting (and in improving their skills) and someone who just goes through the motions.

Also, not everyone has the desire or the ability to have more than one gun, but still wants to be able to use their gun in the most versatile way. There is nothing you can do shooting single action that you cannot do shooting double action, BUT the level of skill needed to shoot DA accurately at longer ranges is much more than what is needed to make hits at the same range shooting SA. For some, that's an important thing. For others (particularly good DA shooters), not so much.

While that belly gun might not be the optimal gun for dropping a coyote at 40yds it is a do able thing, and much more easily done with a gun that can shoot SA than one that shoots DA only. There are a lot of us that could do it SA, but would miss if we tried it DA.

I'm probably in the minority about this, but I have always felt that the important advantages of shooting DA (speed, primarily,) don't mean much if you don't hit your target.

the shrouded hammer gun is a carryover from an earlier time, but still has some practical use and advantages, for some people. Not for everyone, but if it is something that might matter to you, then its something important, for you. Personally, I would chose a shrouded hammer gun over a concealed hammer gun, only because having the ability to shoot it SA, should I choose, is an option I like having. It gives up virtually nothing over the concealed hammer version, and has advantage over the standard hammer guns if you carry in a pocket.

Ideas about what is the best way to use guns, and what features make them better at what they do, come and go. Truly good ideas endure. Ideas that have some degree of usefulness can hang around for generations, and even ideas that some deem poor can last for a long time, if enough people find some utility that outweighs their drawbacks.

At one time, it was fairly common to find revolvers that had the front part of the triggerguard removed. There was a belief that doing this made the gun a little faster to get into action, and that the faster you could get off that all important first shot, the more likely you were to survive a gunfight.

We still tend to believe that the faster we are able to get off a shot the better our odds of survival, but no body seems to think cutting off the front of the triggerguard is what makes you faster, anymore....

I also have a difficult time agreeing with those who feel that having a defensive gun that has both SA and DA modes is a poor choice. Some believe that if you have SA on a defensive gun (and do most of your practice shooting SA) that you will not use the DA when you really need it, and might die as a result. No Kidding, I have actually heard people say "SA will get you killed".

I happen to disagree, as I also disagree with those who feel a safety is a bad thing to have, because they might "forget" to take it off, under stress. They are fully welcome to their opinions, and might even be correct, for some individuals. What I disagree with is those opinions being taken as blanket statements, applying to everyone. That's my opinion.
 
I feel it's quite legitimate to use the SA option for practicing the "long shots".
That begs the question: What "long shots" will a citizen need to make with a defensive gun? Those who insist that there is such a scenario either cannot list one, but still insist on a reference to an "occasional long shot", or a fantasy scenario like rescuing hostages...nowhere in my state's concealed carry laws does it allow for such offensive shooting. In short, I have never heard a convicing argument for the S.A. feature on a non-police, defensive revolver...but I am all ears.

No offense, dahermit, but I am a civilian as, I believe, are the vast majority of policemen
Semantics. I grew-up watching Cop shows where they referred to non-cops as "civilians". I should have said, "non-police", or "citizen", but old habits die hard.
 
I like the SA option for practicing the long shots because:

Although the Bodyguards are primarily designed for SD, I may well find myself carrying one of them when I would like to take a long shot at a feral dog, for example.

Not something I would do for casual hunting, but if they're in the goat pen and I don't have a more appropriate tool, I'm going for it. Not what it was designed for, perhaps, but OTOH, I used a garden hoe to kill a rattlesnake a while back :).

Semantics, understood. I thought that's what you meant. There are, however, people who believe our police forces are becoming a bit too militarized.

Best,

W
 
Getting off the subject here, but I'm getting more and more irritated by referring to civilians and policemen. The police are civilians, too. And they are geting to the point that "He's just a civilian."

Semantics. I grew-up watching Cop shows where they referred to non-cops as "civilians". I should have said, "non-police", or "citizen", but old habits die hard.

Forty years ago the N-word was semantics.

Bob Wright
 
Last edited:
Back
Top