Can I see your receipt?

[zukiphile]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONTEMPT OF COP!!!!... It's a made up thing. The term is found no where in the letter of the law.

You seem very emphatic about that, but it isn't an undocumented phenomenon. "Wood shampoo" and "fell on the way to the station" aren't in the letter of the law, but that doesn't diminish their reality.

While "contempt of cop" isn't in the code, disorderly conduct and failure to obey a lawful order, resisting arrest and obstructing are in the code and can serve as the citation actually served.

what?... and if I dont like the attitude?... then what? Manufacture a crime? Illegally detain someone?... Issue a summons for a nonexistant violation? That would make me the criminal... no? LOL Evaluate the individual? for what?... to what end? I dont know if this "attitude test" is common, uncommon, or unforseeable.

I would hope you would not manufacture a crime, illegally detain anyone, or issue a summons for a non-existent violation, yet some POs have.

You might legitimately evaluate an individual in order to determine what steps you need to take in order to insure your own safety.

I think probably there is a lack of training, and professionalism in some departments.

Undoubtedly. I would also agree that different policing cultures can exist in different areas. It is unfair to paint the courteous and professional with the same broad brush used for the other sort.

One other part of your post merits capital letters.

I can only state my own experiences, and those where I have been present.

I appreciate that and suggest that it limits your other capitalised language.

 

[Glenn Dee]

LOL OK Zukiphile... you know sooner or later they will cut us off...LOL

But here go's

I dont know where you practice. But I certainly wouldnt want to live there. Wood shampoo?... lol thats a new one. I didnt think anyone use wood anymore. But I get the point. I cant think of why any department could let an injury to a prisoner go undocumented. Fell on the way to the stationhouse? The one thing I have noticed is that todays officers go to great length, sometimes at their own risk to avoid injuring prisoners. Injured prisoners in police custody is the exception, not the rule.

Disorderly conduct, Obstructing governmental administration, and resisting arrest are codified by your state legislature. Not the police. While there is the possibility of abusing these sometimes pettit charges, evidently the legislature saw fit to put them on the books... so the problem may go beyond the police no? As far as charges like disobeying, or failing to obey a lawful order, resisting arrest without violence, loitering, and other ambiguous charges Probably wouldnt stand up to constitutional muster. But it would require an attorney with the cash, and the stones to take it that far.

Any police Officer who brings false charges must also be brought before justice to answer for his crimes. Most cops I know would never tolerate this. Now keep in mind that a person arrested rarely agree's with the charges... That dont make the charges unjust.

Contempt of cop is not a legal term, nor has it been accepted as an affermative defense in any court that I know of. And I still keep up with some of the local, NY, and US reports. Again it was made up by a very famous defense attorney as an attempt to discount a police officers testimony. Police Officers are human, and are cut from the same stuff as everyone else. A police officer is duty bound to maintain a level temperment. Because they are human they are subject to losing their temper. Most cases of abuse of authority follow an Officer losing his temper. (Female officers rarely lose their temper). Most officers I have known to lose their temper(including myself) was as a result of a personal assault, untempered insult, or ridicule. It does happen. But still it does not justify any abuse of authority.

Like every other cop in this forum, every other cop in the country, and I'd bet every other cop in the world. I already have a plan to protect myself. Thats going to happen weather I'm dealing with a 6'2" thug with his pants down around his knees with dead spiders on his head, or a 92 year old picture of Betty Crocker great grandmother driving a 29 year old buick. Dead or injured from either is exactly the same. So I treat them the same... with respect and dignity, But at the same time I have a plan to kill them.

Given your description of police conduct in your area... as a attorney (if you are one... I dont know) you should be rich from wrongfull injury, and unlawful arrest suits.

 

[Glenn Dee]

Oh yeah... you seem to feel that my statement limits my exposure. weellll lets look at that...

I worked in a department with 40,000 sworn men and women, I also worked closely with other departments.
Nassau County P.D.
Sofolk County P.D.
Westchester County sheriff
NY State police
Mt.Vernon P.D.
NY State dept of corrections,and Parole
Yonkers P.D.
Jersy City P.D.
NY,NJ Port Authority P.D.
Drug Enforcement administration
BATFE
FBI
NY Parks police
US Parks police
Newark P.D.
NYS Unified court system
NYS Special narcotics prosicutor Sterling Johnson
U.S. Marshal service
Federal Protective Service
NY Dept of investigation
NY Taxi & Limo commision

There are probably a few I dont remember any more. Admitedly my exposure is reagonal, but as I'm now living in Florida I see the same standards in the local agencies

Volusia county Sheriff
Daytona P.D.
Holly hill P.D
Daytona beach shores P.D.
Brevard county Sheriff
Broward county Sheriff
Margate P.D.
Coconut creek P.D.
Hollywood P.D.

Ft Lauderdale PD is deliberately left out.

So I'd say that my exposure probably covers a wider spectrum than most.

 

[zukiphile]

Oh yeah... you seem to feel that my statement limits my exposure. weellll lets look at that...

No. I note that your admission that you are only speaking from personal observation limits the unqualified denials you make. See the difference?

I dont know where you practice. ...Given your description of police conduct in your area... as a attorney (if you are one... I dont know) you should be rich from wrongfull injury, and unlawful arrest suits.

That isn't my practice area. I practice in Cleveland.

Cleveland is like Detroit on a smaller scale. It has a city with a beautiful history and a bleak future, and a ring of suburbs to which everyone who could has escaped.

Cleveland has approximately 60 suburbs each with its own government and PD, so one can observe the difference in behavior of the poorly trained and paid, and the well trained and paid. In some places, I've had POs address me by my christian name in routine traffic stops, in other places where the PO is more likely to think of you as a constituent, I was treated with complete courtesy. I've also been handed a speeding ticket by a PO who didn't even pretend it was a good ticket. In the very same City, I've met some of the very finest men, and they were POs.

One thing I didn't understand until I spoke with some police at social events was that in some respects they distribute much the same way teachers do. If you are talented and well educated, you tend to go to places with better pay and working conditions.

Wood shampoo?... lol thats a new one.

Not new by a long shot. I heard it from a PO when I was a lad.

But still it does not justify any abuse of authority.

I agree. To justify an act and foresee that it may occur are different.


Glenn, the point here isn't to smear POs, but to explain why a PO described in the first post might have asked such an odd question. It is possible, as you suggest, that this PO just didn't know what he was doing. My sense is that he had a reason to ask, since people usually have a reason for what they do.

But that's just my guess.

 

[MLeake]

In the Navy, we had terms like "blanket party" (which anybody who has seen Full Metal Jacket will understand) and "he fell down a ladder" (ladder is Navy speak for stairs").

These weren't official terms, nor anything approved under policy anywhere. Yet people knew exactly what you meant, because some troublemakers sometimes ran into such issues. Everybody knew somebody who had done so. Doesn't mean it was endorsed, nor even tolerated... but doesn't mean it never happened.

Glenn Dee, nobody is claiming that such things are considered the norm, or proper. I think what people are suggesting is that there are some officers out there who don't adhere to departmental norms, and some departments out there that are less professional than others.

Canton PD isn't in a very good light, at the moment...

A year or two ago, one of the Broward departments had a bit of a scandal when a couple of its officers were caught on their own dash-cam figuring out how to falsely blame a civilian for an accident.

Does that mean Canton PD has a policy of abusing concealed carriers, or Broward (don't remember which agency) trains its officers to make up evidence? Of course not. Just that bad apples occur.

FWIW, back in the 80's, Volusia County Sheriff's Department made no bones about the fact that they racially profiled when looking for drug runners, so profiling and other ploys have been the norm in at least some agencies, at some points in time.

 

[JustThisGuy]

Still, I can't remember a recent case of bad P.O. behavior that was so egregious and where that behavior was supported or excused so roundly by the Police Chief and local elected officials. Canton, OH is a special case.

I don't understand why the FBI hasn't stepped in to this fray for a civil rights violation, except that the victim was a "gun-totin feller".

 

[Uncle Buck]

Seems there are two types of people who responded to this thread.

1. Cops can never be trusted and they are all idiots and not really qualified for anything else.

2. Cops are just people trained to do a job. Why hassle them?

I am glad I fall in to the second category. Almost every department has a bad cop. Some are worse than others and hopefully they are found out quickly.

I live in a jurisdiction in which the local sheriffs deputies have been in the neighborhood and stopped by when they hear gun shots. Usually to see what we are shooting and to get a "Range Report."

Our deputies are pretty nice folks and each and everyone of them have an open invitation to stop by and shoot if they want to. They can even bring their families.

I have filed complaints with the sheriffs office before (Texting on cell phones while driving/not wearing seat belts in county cars). I have also called and thanked the sheriffs department for things I see the deputies doing.

 

[MLeake]

Uncle Buck, that's a false dichotomy.

I think most of us probably fall into a different category. This category thinks that most cops are good guys, and that LE is an honorable profession. However, there are some jerks out there - some due to attitude, some due to poor training, and some due to overall departmental atmosphere. These are not the majority, nor even a large minority, but pretending they do not exist is just plain stupid.

I interact with officers in a friendly and respectful manner. Of those I've dealt with over the years, I'd say the jerk category probably included 10-15%, but the really good guy category was probably more like 30-40%, and the remainder were professionally aloof.

I don't think those percentages differ too much from those in EMS, military, or other higher-risk professions.

But your either/or grouping is naive and counter-productive, Uncle Buck. I normally would not associate either term with you.

 

[zincwarrior]

Seems there are two types of people who responded to this thread.

1. Cops can never be trusted and they are all idiots and not really qualified for anything else.

2. Cops are just people trained to do a job. Why hassle them?

I have to disagree with that. Many of the posters are also saying:
1. We have the right to remain silent, anything we say can and will be used against us. Be polite but you don't have to volunteer information or answer a question. If you didn't initiate the contact with the PO, nothing good can come from it.

2. Thats just a strange and frankly stupid thing to ask. It is designed to potentially implicate someone who is stopped. No thanks.

I think most of us probably fall into a different category. This category thinks that most cops are good guys, and that LE is an honorable profession. However, there are some jerks out there - some due to attitude, some due to poor training, and some due to overall departmental atmosphere. These are not the majority, nor even a large minority, but pretending they do not exist is just plain stupid.

I interact with officers in a friendly and respectful manner. Of those I've dealt with over the years, I'd say the jerk category probably included 10-15%, but the really good guy category was probably more like 30-40%, and the remainder were professionally aloof.

Indeed.

 

[zukiphile]

Uncle Buck, that's a false dichotomy.

I think most of us probably fall into a different category. This category thinks that most cops are good guys, and that LE is an honorable profession. However, there are some jerks out there - some due to attitude, some due to poor training, and some due to overall departmental atmosphere. These are not the majority, nor even a large minority, but pretending they do not exist is just plain stupid.

I interact with officers in a friendly and respectful manner. Of those I've dealt with over the years, I'd say the jerk category probably included 10-15%, but the really good guy category was probably more like 30-40%, and the remainder were professionally aloof.

I don't think those percentages differ too much from those in EMS, military, or other higher-risk professions.

But your either/or grouping is naive and counter-productive, Uncle Buck. I normally would not associate either term with you.

I agree that the offered dichotomy isn't fair to the conversation, and would add that almost all groups tend to follow a normal bell curve, but parts of the bell curve may be more easy to observe in some groups. I think that has a lot to do with negative perceptions of attorneys. Couple that with part of police involving confrontational transactions and you have a formula for lots of unpleasant interactions on which you can be judged.


This morning on the way down to the courthouse around which someone is shooting a film, I had a kid with a badge and poor manners stop me by standing in front of me. "Where you goin'?"

I didn't say "Who wants to know?" or "None of your business" or "You've no PC to ask me that!". Life is too short and if we got wrapped around every minute chance to uphold a principle, we'd get very little done. I just pointed to the building.

He didn't share my philosophy, and chose to say "Kay, go 'head!", stand in my way and repeat it. I walked forward moving him out of my way, but that was because I don't condone that sort of rudeness, even in a public employee.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Uncle Buck, that's a false dichotomy.

Your right. There are clouds of many colors and people with different degrees of professionalism, all with-in the same categories.

 

[FrosSsT]

He can ask to see whatever he wants, whether you show him or not is your choice. (Of course that will change his disposition towards you)

 

[C0untZer0]

I bought a used Glock 34 and then a 17L. I liked the trigger kit in the G34 and hated the stock trigger in the 17L. So I swapped the striker assembly and put the 17L slide on my G34 frame.

I guess I would need 2 receipts?