Can anyone tell me what happened to this brass
- Thread starter Wendyj
- Start date
Yeah, but that far down the case? The only tool I have that could conceivably put a perfectly symetrical scratch around a case would be my RCBS Case Master Concentricity gage shown below.
There could be a protruding burr on one of the "V" blocks that you roll the case on. You sure you weren't doing something like that?
Or some other operation in a drill? Even a finger nail could make a light scratch, but probably not in the same place every time as your picture (below) would indicate! Pretty good mystery!
As long as you weren't bearing down to take a lot of metal off, descratching with the scotch brite would probably indicate a mild of no consequence scratch. Can you remove them with 0000 steel wool? That would scratch less than scotch brite.
There could be a protruding burr on one of the "V" blocks that you roll the case on. You sure you weren't doing something like that?
Or some other operation in a drill? Even a finger nail could make a light scratch, but probably not in the same place every time as your picture (below) would indicate! Pretty good mystery!
As long as you weren't bearing down to take a lot of metal off, descratching with the scotch brite would probably indicate a mild of no consequence scratch. Can you remove them with 0000 steel wool? That would scratch less than scotch brite.
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I use the Lee tool that came with the kit. Unfortunately I found marks after resizing. I had just sat down to trim, debur and clean primer pockets and was under much better light. Noticed all brass had rings. Good news is I called dealer and with my receipt they will exchange whole die set. Better news I bought the RCBS dies today since Lee told me 3 week turnaround. So if one goes bad I have another to continue loading. I'm wondering if extra 1/4 turn isn't too much. Think I'll back off some on new set as I can always turn down more if headspace isn't good enough. I only give the RCBS dies about a third of a turn to try on these again. Plenty of lube but they sure are stiff.
I don't own a v block. But it sure looks interesting. My next step is to buy husband dies and trim guage for his 7 mag. Is there any treatment I should apply to new dies? If so I'd like to get it tomorrow if it's been my fault. I just put them in. Lubed bullets and sized. Lee doesn't say anything about cleaning or prepping dies out of the box.
condor bravo
New member
Yes, back off some on the sizing die. Don't overdue the sizing unless the extra turn or so is necessary to set back the shoulder for proper ease in chambering.
You mentioned "what came in the Kit". What kit did you buy?
Also before you sized how did you prep (clean) the brass for sizing?
Die sets often have cutting oil and or anti-rust treatment to new dies simply to make sure they get to the customer pristine. Lee may clean theirs of cutting oil and therefore grinding residue, but nobody's perfect. Either way they will leave anti-rust spray in them. Just rinse them in mineral spirits, or a gun cleaner likes Hoppes, and wipe dry with a clean rag or paper towel.
Depending on where you live (humid climate or not) you may want to oil you dies when you are storing them for a while. Then of course clean them up again befor you use them. Every few loading sessions its good to clean the brass debris and lube from the dies, as well.
The stumper on this mystery is that the brass is pushed vertically into the die. When they scratch brass it's vertically not around a perfect circle. That's why I'm asking about before sizing......in the lesser light maybe.
Also before you sized how did you prep (clean) the brass for sizing?
Die sets often have cutting oil and or anti-rust treatment to new dies simply to make sure they get to the customer pristine. Lee may clean theirs of cutting oil and therefore grinding residue, but nobody's perfect. Either way they will leave anti-rust spray in them. Just rinse them in mineral spirits, or a gun cleaner likes Hoppes, and wipe dry with a clean rag or paper towel.
Depending on where you live (humid climate or not) you may want to oil you dies when you are storing them for a while. Then of course clean them up again befor you use them. Every few loading sessions its good to clean the brass debris and lube from the dies, as well.
The stumper on this mystery is that the brass is pushed vertically into the die. When they scratch brass it's vertically not around a perfect circle. That's why I'm asking about before sizing......in the lesser light maybe.
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Lee challenger kit. Press, hand priming tool, she'll holders, lube, hand trimmer, press trimmer, deburring tool, primer cleaning tool and one lock ring. Picked up media cleaner, digital and analog calipers. Came with scale but I bought two digital scales to double and triple check myself. Also came with perfect powder measure but I weigh every grain. I've been cleaning with corn cob media. Lubing. Resizing. Then trimming cases and primer pockets. De burring. Measuring all trimmed cases and putting powder in and seating bullets to spec. That's all my loading manuals have taught me. The rest I've learned from the good people on here. I've got a long ways to go but I'm loving every minute of it. Been reloading in my sleep.
Reread my last post as I tried to answer your other questions.
I'm suspecting it happened while you used the Lee Hand Trimmer. Not that the tool itself would normally do it......you may have just held your mouth right.
I have three daughters that love to shoot.......their husbands....less so. I really ought to teach them to reload, huh!
I'm suspecting it happened while you used the Lee Hand Trimmer. Not that the tool itself would normally do it......you may have just held your mouth right.
I have three daughters that love to shoot.......their husbands....less so. I really ought to teach them to reload, huh!
The marks look like they are from the Lee deburring tool and they are harmless. Nothing with your dies that I can see making a mark like that, but I have seen the same ring on my own brass from the Lee deburring tool. It's one of the first thing I replaced (with an L.E. Wilson "rocket" chamfer/debur tool).
Can't be from trimming or deburring tool. I size on the press but bring drill and case plus brass over to my chair in front of tv to do the not so much concentration work. I inspect the brass before trimming and after. Before is when I noticed the rings. I'm way too new not to do a lot of double and triple checking. You are correct though as the deburring tool falls right in line with that ring. I might think that if it had been only Hornady brass as I might have done it on last loading. Nosler brass had never been reloaded. Was all factory I had shot last weekend. Lee sent me email after I sent pictures and advised I back off from 1/4 turn to an 1/8 of a turn and see if that might fix it. Trading their dies out today and heading to firing range. I still have 40 pieces of brass I've loaded with 165 gr bt that don't have rings. I'll see when I get back I guess. Until I shoot I'm out of brass.
I have found that to inspect each case during each process I am able to catch and correct problems as I find them. If you were inspecting as I mentioned you would have found the problem. Take a clean case and put it through the process and you should be able to find the issue. Always inspect as you go.
I don't see how a sizing die could make that ring unless 1 of two things is occurring:
You are twisting the case while sizing (doubtful)
The sizing die has a sharp ring that scrapes the brass down to a stop point. Don't see an scrapes on the brass.
How would the sizing die create a ring around the case ?
You are twisting the case while sizing (doubtful)
The sizing die has a sharp ring that scrapes the brass down to a stop point. Don't see an scrapes on the brass.
How would the sizing die create a ring around the case ?
JeepHammer
Moderator
Manufacturing Process glitch...
When I make a sizing die for wildcat rounds,
I cut it out of graphite,
Drill the tool steel body to general shape,
Use the graphite positive of the case/bullet to EDM (Electronic Discharge Machining) to size,
Then polish the die with lapping compound with a positive, to EXACT inside dimensions.
A CNC wire fed EDM could cut that die without cutting/building positives for the EDM process.
Just polish when it comes off the EDM...
EDM can also work in pre-hardened tool steel which saves a ton of time and money...
It would only take a flicker in the power to have an EDM cut that groove in the die...
The Die would still pass Go/NoGo inspections, and it would get boxed up with the rest.
It's just time for the manufacturer to choke up a new die without the flaw.
When I make a sizing die for wildcat rounds,
I cut it out of graphite,
Drill the tool steel body to general shape,
Use the graphite positive of the case/bullet to EDM (Electronic Discharge Machining) to size,
Then polish the die with lapping compound with a positive, to EXACT inside dimensions.
A CNC wire fed EDM could cut that die without cutting/building positives for the EDM process.
Just polish when it comes off the EDM...
EDM can also work in pre-hardened tool steel which saves a ton of time and money...
It would only take a flicker in the power to have an EDM cut that groove in the die...
The Die would still pass Go/NoGo inspections, and it would get boxed up with the rest.
It's just time for the manufacturer to choke up a new die without the flaw.
stubbicatt
New member
I cannot say for sure, but those concentric rings would have me worried about case separation. Perhaps do a paperclip test, and see if there is a corresponding lack of brass in a ring like depression inside the cases at the point where you see the ring on the outside.
Given the axial nature of the resizing process, if there were a fault with the die, it would leave axial marks on your cases, or marks running along the axis from case mouth to case head. It seems unlikely that a sizing die would leave that mark.
I have had milsurp brass separate at that point before after one or two loadings, leaving the front half stuck in the chamber.
Given the axial nature of the resizing process, if there were a fault with the die, it would leave axial marks on your cases, or marks running along the axis from case mouth to case head. It seems unlikely that a sizing die would leave that mark.
I have had milsurp brass separate at that point before after one or two loadings, leaving the front half stuck in the chamber.
condor bravo
New member
Pay attention to what Stubbicatt is saying and do the paperclip test on the cases. If any inside indention is perceived anywhere in the case, consider that to mean pending case separation, probably caused by oversizing and setting the shoulder back excessively. After the next firing the case will stretch back to its full length and the case will be thinned slightly at some point, usually near the case head but Stubbicatt says it has occurred in the forward section of his milsurp cases. Then after several over sizings and re-firings the stretch point can give way, resulting in a case separation and then you may have problems. Like others have said, I see no way that the die could be responsible for the rings. Back off some on the sizing die and see if the sized cases will chamber properly. Do not set the shoulders back unless necessary for proper sizing and chambering.
Went to range. Fired them all after I uded scotch brite pad and they went away. I had already done paper clip test. Used dremmel tool and cut one open. Nothing inside. Returned dies this morning. Got new ones to replace. Now just wondering if these need some sort of cleaning or treating before using. Also had found some varget powder. Loaded up some 180 gr nosler bt with 40 gr and some with 41.5. Worse groups using 41.5. Little over an inch. Got fairly decent for me with 40 gr at .801. Benchmark powder at 40 grains and 165 gr nosler bt still outdoing it. Three shot group cold barrell at .684. About the same as they did last weekend. Now I have to try and figure out how long to make coal. Guy at range had loaded several 308 and was shooting 1 hole groups with match ammo for the most. He told me to take needle nose pliers and make small dent in cartridge put sharpie marks on cartridge and insert close bolt and find mark on bullet then set back .005. I had loaded these at 2.795 close staying below the 2.80 Hodgdon recommended. Trying what he said it sets around 2.920. Not sure I done this right. Only saw on slight mark where sharie got wiped off. More to learn everyday.
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I read the OP's original post yesterday and have been thinking off and about it ever since. First, no way do I think it's the dies. I was thinking that there might be a very slight defect in the chamber with a very small raised ring but then the OP said a factory round did not get the ring and apparently, if I understand it correctly it hasn't happened again with reloads so I'm scratching my head just like everyone else. 
Those rings in that brass are too even and precise which still leads me to believe it was caused by the chamber. About all the OP can do is keep an eye on the brass and see if it happens again. Other than that I don't think it's a cause for worry at this point.
Paul B.
Those rings in that brass are too even and precise which still leads me to believe it was caused by the chamber. About all the OP can do is keep an eye on the brass and see if it happens again. Other than that I don't think it's a cause for worry at this point.Paul B.
Paul. I shot 6 factory rounds at range today with my reloads. Factory brass was flawless. Just put new die in and set it to just where it touched the brass. No extra 1/3 or 1/4 of a turn. No rings but also new dies. Definitely not from rifle. After sizing brass fit fine in headspace guage. Lee asked me to back the die up even though their manual suggests the extra 1/4 turn. I'm stumped. Put the Hornady one shot and Lee lube aside and used bag balm. Sure works smoother than anything I've tried so far.
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