Can anyone ID this rifle?
- Thread starter RebBacchus
- Start date
RebBacchus
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RebBacchus
Inactive
RebBacchus
Inactive
WW II Japanese Arisaka, Type 99 cal 7.7mm Jap. Bolt handle is typical of late war production.
The ground spot on the receiver was to remove (or deface) the Imperial Chrysanthemum, indicating the rifle was most likely surrendered, and not a battlefield pick up.
Ballistic performance of the round is approximately equal to the .303 British, and uses the same bullets (.312" bore).
Functional cases can be formed from .30-06 brass. Commercial brass was available from Graf & Sons at one time, but I do not know if they currently are.
The ground spot on the receiver was to remove (or deface) the Imperial Chrysanthemum, indicating the rifle was most likely surrendered, and not a battlefield pick up.
Ballistic performance of the round is approximately equal to the .303 British, and uses the same bullets (.312" bore).
Functional cases can be formed from .30-06 brass. Commercial brass was available from Graf & Sons at one time, but I do not know if they currently are.
Armed_Chicagoan
New member
I've seen 7.7 Japanese at Cabela's recently. I'd just buy a hundred rounds of loaded ammo and then reload the brass. Or less, it's hideously expensive.
eta: I think it was Norma not PPU
eta: I think it was Norma not PPU
RebBacchus
Inactive
THANKS!!! I've sent the info to my nephew
Blindstitch
New member
I believe Norma and Hornady load for it. And PPU produces cases.
kilimanjaro
New member
You can find loaded ammo in gunshops that have been around for a while, they stocked a case back in 1982 and still have some laying around.
Just buy some ammo or brass and reload your own, it's not that tough.
At war's end, every serviceman in the Pacific got one of these. My Dad's carrier came in to dock at Tientsin in 1945, there was a literal mountain of Arisaka rifles and other trophies on the dock. Everyone on the ship got to select a rifle. The Mum was ground off at a work station while the trophy paper was filled out with the man's name and rank. For a dollar and a smile with the swabbies tasked with the grinding work, you could bypass the Mum grinding, depending on how much the officer in charge cared about not disgracing the Emperor.
Officers got to select from a pile of pistols and swords, higher ranks could get one of each. Unground rifle Mums were more common with rank, too.
On the voyage home in 1946, a rifle was $2, pistols were $10, and swords were $50 in equivalent in the shipboard gambling sessions, according to my Dad.
Just buy some ammo or brass and reload your own, it's not that tough.
At war's end, every serviceman in the Pacific got one of these. My Dad's carrier came in to dock at Tientsin in 1945, there was a literal mountain of Arisaka rifles and other trophies on the dock. Everyone on the ship got to select a rifle. The Mum was ground off at a work station while the trophy paper was filled out with the man's name and rank. For a dollar and a smile with the swabbies tasked with the grinding work, you could bypass the Mum grinding, depending on how much the officer in charge cared about not disgracing the Emperor.
Officers got to select from a pile of pistols and swords, higher ranks could get one of each. Unground rifle Mums were more common with rank, too.
On the voyage home in 1946, a rifle was $2, pistols were $10, and swords were $50 in equivalent in the shipboard gambling sessions, according to my Dad.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I wasn't there, but my understanding is the mums were ground off by the Japanese before they were surrendered.
Gunplummer
New member
Nobody knows for sure. It has been a topic for debate since the end of WWII.
It can be expensive, it does not have to be. I form 7.7mm Japanese cases from 30/06 cases with two methods, one I use a 7.7 Japanese forming die; the other way is to use a 308 W forming die.
The advantage to forming 7.7 cases from 30/06 cases is the extra length of the 30/06 case. A case forming reloader can off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case.
F. Guffey
kilimanjaro
New member
Maybe somewhere the Mums were ground off by the Japanese, but Dad told me there was a line of Americans with grinders doing the work on the dock his carrier was berthed at. It was the same throughout the harbor.
There are many stories about those ground "mums", even claims that the Japanese troops carried files so they could remove the crest before surrendering!!
The only story that seems sensible, and one I have seen quoted from both American and Japanese sources is that when the Americans seized Japanese depots, mainly in Japan itself, Japanese workers ground off the crest. That was because it would be dishonorable to turn a rifle with an intact crest over to foreigners. Was it ever done by Americans? Maybe, but if the rifle was in American hands already, there would have been no point.
It was widely known at the time, that a ground crest meant a rifle taken from a depot, so many Americans had to figure out a story that would explain how the rifles they captured in hand-to-hand combat with Tojo himself had ground crests.
The best one I heard from a vet was that he captured the rifle after fierce jungle combat but after he brought it home, the FBI came and took it and when they returned it the crest had been ground! According to the vet, Harry Truman kept a personal record of all those captured guns and who had them so that he could have them ground to keep his secret deal with Hirohito!! (Of course, the vet had never been west of San Diego, but what did that have to do with a war story?)
Jim
The only story that seems sensible, and one I have seen quoted from both American and Japanese sources is that when the Americans seized Japanese depots, mainly in Japan itself, Japanese workers ground off the crest. That was because it would be dishonorable to turn a rifle with an intact crest over to foreigners. Was it ever done by Americans? Maybe, but if the rifle was in American hands already, there would have been no point.
It was widely known at the time, that a ground crest meant a rifle taken from a depot, so many Americans had to figure out a story that would explain how the rifles they captured in hand-to-hand combat with Tojo himself had ground crests.
The best one I heard from a vet was that he captured the rifle after fierce jungle combat but after he brought it home, the FBI came and took it and when they returned it the crest had been ground! According to the vet, Harry Truman kept a personal record of all those captured guns and who had them so that he could have them ground to keep his secret deal with Hirohito!! (Of course, the vet had never been west of San Diego, but what did that have to do with a war story?)
Jim
While it is most likely done as James K suggests there apparently are some cases where mums were ground (or filed defaced) by US troops, no doubt at the order of some brass hat who felt showing "respect" would be good for US/Japanese relations.
I can also see guys detailed to that task skipping a rifle for a buck, or a beer or some smokes, when the brass wasn't looking over their shoulders...
I'm afraid only the people who were there are the time can say with certainty, and very, very few of them are around to ask these days, and soon, none will be.
I can also see guys detailed to that task skipping a rifle for a buck, or a beer or some smokes, when the brass wasn't looking over their shoulders...
I'm afraid only the people who were there are the time can say with certainty, and very, very few of them are around to ask these days, and soon, none will be.
MacArthur deserves a bit of understanding, if not sympathy. He was going to take over a country whose leaders had surrendered under extreme duress (two A-Bombs). But the Japanese people still considered the emperor to be god, and were fiercely loyal to him. One word from him, and the U.S. military would have faced a revolution and had to slaughter millions of civilians or be overrun and killed. So, yes, Mac made deals with the Emperor's faction, the major one being to allow Hirohito to remain in power, though he had to renounce any claim of godhood. I have no idea where the removal of the imperial crest (actually the family "mon" of the emperor) came from, but I suspect it was of Japanese origin, part of the process of "saving face".
As others have said, there is probably no definitive answer to the many questions. But if American troops were ordered to grind off "mums", there would have to have been a written order to do so, and thousands of copies made; I know of no such order. Further, the loss of face occurred when an enemy infidel touched the imperial symbol; once it was in American hands, the dishonorable deed was done; it would have been too late to prevent it.
Regardless, it is pretty safe to say that Harry Truman was too busy to keep track of all those Arisakas and have the FBI grind off the crests. That vet just might have been fibbing a little.
Jim
As others have said, there is probably no definitive answer to the many questions. But if American troops were ordered to grind off "mums", there would have to have been a written order to do so, and thousands of copies made; I know of no such order. Further, the loss of face occurred when an enemy infidel touched the imperial symbol; once it was in American hands, the dishonorable deed was done; it would have been too late to prevent it.
Regardless, it is pretty safe to say that Harry Truman was too busy to keep track of all those Arisakas and have the FBI grind off the crests. That vet just might have been fibbing a little.
Jim