Can an off duty police officer ...........

Rangerjoe,
Please peruse the Florida concealed carry law and reproduce for us here whatever language you believe is present there to indicate that "printing" (and I don't mean having the actual gun poke out) runs afoul of the legal requirements of concealed carry.

A "bulge" is not, in my reading of the law, enough to make a licensee failing to comply with the terms of the license. And if so, I don't believe that doing so rises to the level of a crime, under Florida's law. (790.06: "Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.")

The state sends a copy of the law to licensees when they receive or renew their license.

Under 790.001, the law says:
" 'Concealed firearm' means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person."

That says "conceal the firearm." It does not say "conceal the shape of the firearm." It also does not say anything about concealing the knowledge of the presence of the firearm from other people. That can be left open to interpretation. I guess it means that if you were to inform someone, in a non-threatening manner and circumstance, "Yeah, I'm carrying a gun [here]," you are not breaking the law, even though you have let the person know you have a gun, and where it is. All the law talks about is concealing it from sight, and I take "ordinary sight" to mean that they see the actual gun itself, not its shape, outline, bulge, etc.


On topic, the law says in that very section that, "The licensee must carry the license together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer."

What I wonder about is, the license IS a valid form of identification. It is a state-issued PHOTO ID. Are they really requiring a second state-issued photo ID be carried?? Why? It's like saying that a cop should be able to ask for your driver's license, and then something else that proves who you are. Doesn't make sense to me.


-blackmind
 
going back to the original post....

The funny part is that you can walk into that same store in AZ with that same pistol open carry on your hip and not get looked at twice....rural AZ anyway, city folk here have been assimilated (Californians evacuating at a great rate into my fair state)
 
"So you draw no distinction between the thief or the VICTIM when it comes to the vent window being broken or the lock being punched out?"

How the heck am I supposed to know who is who, telepathy? I have to make the stop in order to find out. THEN I can draw a distinction.

Search and seizure standards and case law has become more stringent in recent history, not less. A 100 years ago there was no Mapp, Terry, Carroll and the like, nor were terms like probable cause and reasonable suspicion used
 
RangerJoe

Here in AZ we can open carry and CCW.
CCW requires a permit.
So if I have a CCW and my shirt comes up and my gun flashes, I am not breaking any law.
I can conceal or not conceal legally.
I do not believe that once you decide to conceal you are stuck with concealing, not here in Arizona that is.
There are many stores in the Phoenix area that will not think twice about you and your open carry.
People may look, but store employees and security (off-duty police or other) don't say anything to you.
I very rarely carry open because you are just drawing attention to yourself and eliminating the element of surprise.

If what you say is correct for other states, what stops you from getting charged when you pull the weapon out to defend yourself/someone?
The weapon is no longer concealed.
 
Powderman said:
Well, would'nt you know, one of the local JBT's saw a car driving on an interstate without a proper license tag or tab. He pulled it over. Harassment? Maybe so, according to some of you
Click to expand...

I do not think anyone said that would be harassment.
We said you do not know if they have a driver's license, not license plate/tag.
The license plate is clearly visible from the outside of the car, you can determine if illegal or not just by looking at the year tab or running the plate.
If your state allowed open carry and a police officer sees that your pistol had the serial numbers scratched off, that would be comparable to a car with expired tags or stolen plates.

wrinkled,
I am 25 years old and lived in Phoenix my entire life.
I can remember when I was younger seeing men in stores carrying openly. These days its rare. I understand wanting to get out of California and Mexico, but damn do they all have to flood in here?
They don't want to adapt to our way of life here, they want us to adapt to their way of life from which they came.
 
If what you say is correct for other states, what stops you from getting charged when you pull the weapon out to defend yourself/someone?"

More than likely 'cause the legitimate defensive use of a firearm is recognized at common law as an affirmative defense - that there was a legitimate, lawful reason for a law being broken. Drawing it may constitute menacing, and using it is technically an assault, but the are legally excusable (assuming it is legitimate in the frist place)
 
RangerJoe1966 said:
When an officer sees this, he/she is OBLIGATED BY LAW to investigate, just as they are obligated by law to investigate when someone is driving erratically or has broken/unsafe equipment on their car, or has expired license tags, etc.
Click to expand...

Is a missing trunk lock considered unsafe equipment? I think not.
Is a missing or broken wing-window considered unsafe equipment? I think not.
You are only required by law to have a windshield; side windows are not required.
I doubt that a trunk lock is required by law.
So by stopping someone with a broken wing-window or missing trunk lock you are assuming they might be guilty.
If you suspect it may be a stolen vehicle you check the hot sheet, you run the plates you don't pull over every car with a busted lock or window.
Now following them for a bit and pulling them over for a driving violation is a different story and is the way it should be investigated, IMO.
If the Phoenix police pulled over every car they saw with a busted trunk lock they wouldn't have anytime to go the numerous domestic disputes.
As I am sure you know Phoenix has a high car theft rate.
Many are found and returned, the legal owner is driving around with busted locks, because they either can't afford to repair it, haven't got to it, or the cost just isn't worth it.
No need to treat these victims, like criminals.

Sendec,
Where are you a police officer?
You were taught that a broken window or trunk lock is PC and you may pull someone over for that reason alone and investigate?
If you see someone on the side of the road rolling their own cigarette (maybe its a joint).
Is that PC to stop them and see if it's a joint or cigarette?
BTW, a co-worker of mine was riding a bicycle to work.
While waiting for the Don't Walk sign to change he rolled his cigarette.
Wouldn't you know the police saw this and stopped him.
When they discovered that it was only a cigarette they returned his I.D. and released him, they treated him like a criminal the entire stop, even after they determined it was a cigarette.
I think they took it personal that they were wrong and he was right.
 
I've picked up at least several hot cars before they were reported stolen by looking for indicators such as broken locks, windows, damaged steering columns, scratches, etc....I've also stopped cars with indicators like these were nothing was wrong, the operator was advised why he or she was stopped, thanked for their cooperation and sent on their way. But you have to make the stop to find out.

By waiting for a traffic violation to (possibly) occur you are bordering into a grey area refered to as "pretext stops". You want a real can o' worms go down THAT trail.
 
Sorry, WP I have been a state & municipal peace officer and am currently a Deputy Sheriff in a midwestern state. My career has been half in patrol and half in investigations.

I have picked up numerous indicators of stolen vehicles both in training and by experience.
 
Sendec, I think it's a good thing police officers look out for these signs of a possible stolen vehicle and catch the criminals. I would be very appreciative if you stopped the man who stole my car before I reported it. But I don't see how it's right to stop someone for a broken lock or side window.

Now the "brights" (headlights) turned on is a different story.
This can also be a sign of a stolen vehicle.
Sometimes when the column is "cracked" the hi-beam switch can be damaged and stuck on hi-beams.
Driving around with your hi-beams on is illegal and justifies a stop.
This whole car stop issue is getting us off topic :)
 
WP, we are getting pretty far afield, but if you'd like further information I recommend going to fbi.gov, clicking on "publications" and searching the Law Enforcement Bulletin for articles that apply. I'd also recommend "Modern Criminal Procedure" by Kamisar et al and "Tactics for Criminal Patrol" published by Calibre Press. These are probably in your local community college library if they have a police science program, and provide a decent overview of probable cause.
 
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