Can all 357 bullets be used for 38 spl loads?
- Thread starter BondoBob
- Start date
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Oops!74A95 said:
Missed that. It's on the opposite page. You can tell I don't spend much time in the Lyman book. Sorry.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
As John Wayne is reported to have said, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." If what you can find is Trailboss and 125-grain JHP bullets, that's what you use.BondoBob said:
You can load those bullets with Trailboss. The good thing about the Trailboss is that there's a wide range between the starting load and the maximum load. I'm not sure why you decided to start at the middle of the range rather than the starting load, but even at 4.5 grains you're not likely to have any issues. Fortunately, the .38 Special is a low-pressure round. Back it down to 4.0 grains and you'll be even safer. If those make it out of your barrel (they will), then you can try increasing in steps of .2 grains while watching for signs of excess pressure.
I don't think anyone is telling you that you can't or shouldn't use those bullets with Trailboss. But ... you're starting out. We don't want you to start on the wrong foot. That's why I stress the point that, although you are using data you found on the Hornady site, that recipe is for a different bullet so technically you can't properly say that you're using data from the Hornady site. You're adapting data from the Hornady site, for use with a different projectile. In this instance, that change probably won't cause any issues. That's not always going to be the case. Some powders have an extremely narrow range between the starting load and the maximum load. In those cases, you need to be very careful about substitutions.
Was worried about getting a squib load in my 4" 686.
I feel better now.
I appreciate that. This really is a great forum. BTW, I chose Trailboss to start simply because it seemed the least dense and nearly impossible to dump a double charge in the case.
I'm taking my time (been researching this for 6 months) and leaning a lot here. I'm quite sure I'll graduate to more appropriate powders, after I get in some bench time, nail my process down and put a few hundred rounds down range that perform as I expect and with consistency.
My ultimate goal is to be loading range rounds for training, medium force 38 spl for my 442, hot 38+p or mild 357 for my 686 and Henry Big Boy 357.
I prefer to train routinely with rounds that will feel approximately like my factory rounds I'd use outside the range at half the price of course.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Starting loads aren't going to produce squibs.
Sometimes they do. This author reports squibs with the starting load in a 380: https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/the-extreme-danger-of-squibs/
Jim Watson
New member
A load listed for a lead bullet will usually give lower velocity with a jacket bullet. It is not going to stick a bullet but there is no need to sneak up on a .38 Special load for use in a .357 Magnum gun. Whether it is 12000 psi or 13000 psi or 18000 psi is immaterial in a gun built for 35000 psi.
A book COL for one revolver bullet does not apply to the next revolver bullet.
Seat to crimp in the cannelure.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Ya got me. But IMHO you found the exception that proves the rule. The author of that article was intentionally seeking out extremely light loads. He doesn't identify the site where he found that data, but the powder was HP-38 (Hodgdon), and that load didn't come from the Hodgdon site. In fact, Hodgdon doesn't even list a 115-grain bullet in their .380 ACP data.74A95 said:
But your post does reinforce the point that we need to be careful what load data we rely on ... and, if possible, cross-check multiple sources for verification. In the case of that article, the author admitted that the load he used was the lightest load he was able to find ... anywhere. Since Hodgdon doesn't show data for that bullet, we know the source wasn't Hodgdon; we don't know what the source was. He described it only as "a normally reliable website."
Contributing factors (which he could not have anticipated unless he was extremely paranoid): the load was published for a Colt Mark IV with a 2.25" barrel (a Mustang, in other words). His pistol had a 3.82" barrel -- 70% longer. Out of that longer barrel, he had three out of six that exited the barrel, and three that did not. The ones that stuck were right at the muzzle, and partially protruding. So we can safely conclude that they would all have exited a 2.25" barrel ... which is what the data were developed for.
It's because of things like this that this site has disclaimers about posting unpublished loads, and about each reader here being responsible for verifying that a load you find here will be safe in your gun. When you stay within the parameters established by the powder makers, the bullet makers, and sources such as Lyman, you're generally in safe territory. When you spend a lot of time chasing down an outlier load that appears only on "a normally reliable website," and nobody else has it, that's when the warning flags should be flying.
That could apply to a lot of things, including large disparities from published load data in manuals.
Wasn't there some kind of a problem with shooting semi-jacketed bullets at low pressures with the core shooting out of the barrel and leaving the jacket in there?
I was thinking for some reason that the semi- jacketed bullets needed to be loaded hotter so the jacket would be blown out if the core and jacket separated.
I know these are the scallop cut bullets and Remington made some straight cut semi-jacketed at one time.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-such...-jacket-Why-call-a-bullet-a-full-metal-jacket
Third paragraph down on first post.
I've always used this rule, is there anything to it? I used those scalloped jacketed bullets when I was a kid and was always afraid to load them light.
I was thinking for some reason that the semi- jacketed bullets needed to be loaded hotter so the jacket would be blown out if the core and jacket separated.
I know these are the scallop cut bullets and Remington made some straight cut semi-jacketed at one time.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-such...-jacket-Why-call-a-bullet-a-full-metal-jacket
Third paragraph down on first post.
I've always used this rule, is there anything to it? I used those scalloped jacketed bullets when I was a kid and was always afraid to load them light.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/copper-jacket-remained-in-barrel-in-357-mag.566071/
Here is another post on light loads with semi jacketed bullets.
Here is another post on light loads with semi jacketed bullets.
Nothing wrong with starting in the middle , most times the starting loads are too anemic and better loads found in the middle ... most of my accurate loads don't come from a max load or a minimum load but somewhere in the middle , usually between middle and maximum .
I start in the middle and work a little higher and a little lower and see what is best .
Saves me time but I've been doing this 50+ years now .
I start in the middle and work a little higher and a little lower and see what is best .
Saves me time but I've been doing this 50+ years now .
Jim Watson
New member
Yes, saw it happen. The guy didn't want those nasty old lead wadcutters in his gun so he loaded some Speer JSPs - the ogival ones, not the straight 7/8 jacket type - very lightly and sure enough, stuck a jacket while the core went on to hit the target. Hole in target, no reason not to shoot again. He did not notice the bulge until he cleaned the gun and the patch "jumped."
BondoBob I would say 99% plus of squibs are primed cases with that the loader failed to charge with powder, or an automatic powder measure clogs up or bridges and only trickles a very light (less than half) charge. You are safe going down to a starting charge.
Ask tons of questions here I have learned a ton over the years on this very forum. You will learn with experience what is and is/is not safe. Just err on the side of caution. Our hobby is about handheld controlled explosions. FWIW I may not bother going down to a starting load if I load a new 38 Spc load that I know I’m going to shoot in a 357 revolver. I may even purposefully load 38+p+. I may use jacketed data for lead projectiles (most data for lead is reduced to avoid extreme lead fouling, but properly sized bullets and alloys make this a non issue for velocities under 1400 FPS or so). There is a lot of things you can do with load data, but make darn sure you understand what you are doing and why you’re doing it. Most importantly have fun. FWIW your load is quite safe out of a 686.
I will also second that you look into ordering cast projectiles. Read up on it some to understand it, but I can shoot full 357 mag for about .12 per round buying Missouri cast projectiles, about .07 now that I cast my own. And yes, I understand sometimes you have to get creative with components. Especially in times like these. Just be safe and have fun!
Ask tons of questions here I have learned a ton over the years on this very forum. You will learn with experience what is and is/is not safe. Just err on the side of caution. Our hobby is about handheld controlled explosions. FWIW I may not bother going down to a starting load if I load a new 38 Spc load that I know I’m going to shoot in a 357 revolver. I may even purposefully load 38+p+. I may use jacketed data for lead projectiles (most data for lead is reduced to avoid extreme lead fouling, but properly sized bullets and alloys make this a non issue for velocities under 1400 FPS or so). There is a lot of things you can do with load data, but make darn sure you understand what you are doing and why you’re doing it. Most importantly have fun. FWIW your load is quite safe out of a 686.
I will also second that you look into ordering cast projectiles. Read up on it some to understand it, but I can shoot full 357 mag for about .12 per round buying Missouri cast projectiles, about .07 now that I cast my own. And yes, I understand sometimes you have to get creative with components. Especially in times like these. Just be safe and have fun!
Speer made some truly excellent "half jacket" (about 3/4 actually) SWC bullets, a 146gr HP and a 160 SWC in .38 cal.
Repeatedly and clearly stating, (including a note in the bullet box) that there was a MINIMUM velocity for those bullets and that they should not be fired at less than that, because the jackets could separate.
Some folks didn't listen, as usual....
ANY of the old "cup and core" pistol bullets may shed their jackets in the barrel if they are pushed too SLOWLY. The further up the bullet the jacket goes, the less likely it is, but even slugs like the Remington scallops can do it.
The answer is simple, and obvious, shoot them at the speeds they are made for. Why some people can't grasp that is beyond me.
Yes, starting loads are light. Once in a while, too light. This is intentional. its why we call them "starting loads". You start very light, in order to find out if your gun is one of the rare ones at the bottom end of the bell curve. Once you test fire a few shots and know your gun isn't showing pressure signs at that level, you move up a bit.
You can build a cat sneeze load where the bullet hops out of the muzzle, walks to the target and engages it in mortal combat for several minutes before punching a hole through (rock DOES beat paper, here
) or you can build a screaming speed of heat load that blows through a dragon and asks "did I hit something??" but you WON'T do both with the same bullet.
Which doesn't seem to stop some people from trying....
Repeatedly and clearly stating, (including a note in the bullet box) that there was a MINIMUM velocity for those bullets and that they should not be fired at less than that, because the jackets could separate.
Some folks didn't listen, as usual....
ANY of the old "cup and core" pistol bullets may shed their jackets in the barrel if they are pushed too SLOWLY. The further up the bullet the jacket goes, the less likely it is, but even slugs like the Remington scallops can do it.
The answer is simple, and obvious, shoot them at the speeds they are made for. Why some people can't grasp that is beyond me.
Yes, starting loads are light. Once in a while, too light. This is intentional. its why we call them "starting loads". You start very light, in order to find out if your gun is one of the rare ones at the bottom end of the bell curve. Once you test fire a few shots and know your gun isn't showing pressure signs at that level, you move up a bit.
You can build a cat sneeze load where the bullet hops out of the muzzle, walks to the target and engages it in mortal combat for several minutes before punching a hole through (rock DOES beat paper, here
) or you can build a screaming speed of heat load that blows through a dragon and asks "did I hit something??" but you WON'T do both with the same bullet.Which doesn't seem to stop some people from trying....