Can a treaty ratified by the Senate trump the U.S. Constitution?

Curious CarGuyChris what distinguishes a Mexican Treaty from other treaties? Would they both not be considered a treaty with a foreign country regardless of whether it is Mexico or Russia? Could you elaborate on what makes one different over the other. I am guessing that because it is Mexico there is a danger of being able to get the 2/3rds vote and there may be a anti-gun clause imbedded somewhere in there. Am I on the right track?
 
Can a treaty ratified by the Senate trump the U.S. Constitution?

No. It cannot trump the Constitution. Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957). This case was where the wife of an Airman had killed her husband in England on post. At the time, England and the United States had an executive agreement that all such cases would be tried in military court and she was tried by courts martial. Her lawyer petitioned for a hearing with in D.C. outside the UCMJ. A similar case from Japan was consolidated with Mrs. Covert's case.

Justice Black said:
The obvious and decisive answer to this, of course, is that no agreement with a foreign nation can confer power on the Congress, or on any other branch of Government, which is free from the restraints of the Constitution.

Article VI, the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, declares:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;... ."

There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties and laws enacted pursuant to them do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution. Nor is there anything in the debates which accompanied the drafting and ratification of the Constitution which even suggests such a result...

...There is nothing new or unique about what we say here. This Court has regularly and uniformly recognized the supremacy of the Constitution over a treaty. 33 For example, in Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. 258, 267 , it declared:

"The treaty power, as expressed in the Constitution, is in terms unlimited except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government or of its departments, and those arising from the nature of the government itself and of that of the States. It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the Constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the [354 U.S. 1, 18] government or in that of one of the States, or a cession of any portion of the territory of the latter, without its consent."
This Court has also repeatedly taken the position that an Act of Congress, which must comply with the Constitution, is on a full parity with a treaty, and that when a statute which is subsequent in time is inconsistent with a treaty, the statute to the extent of conflict renders the treaty null. 34 It would be completely anomalous to say that a treaty need not comply with the Constitution when such an agreement can be overridden by a statute that must conform to that instrument.

There is nothing in Missouri v. Holland, 252 U.S. 416 , which is contrary to the position taken here. There the Court carefully noted that the treaty involved was not inconsistent with any specific provision of the Constitution. The Court was concerned with the Tenth Amendment which reserves to the States or the people all power not delegated to the National Government. To the extent that the United States can validly make treaties, the people and the States have delegated their power to the National Government and the Tenth Amendment is no barrier. 35
 
Curious CarGuyChris what distinguishes a Mexican Treaty from other treaties? ... I am guessing that because it is Mexico there is a danger of being able to get the 2/3rds vote and there may be a anti-gun clause imbedded somewhere in there. Am I on the right track?
Yes, you are on the right track. Other than the gun-smuggling issue, there are numerous other issues that both countries are concerned about- namely drugs, immigration, and trade. Everything will be on the table once the US and Mexico start negotiating, and any deals that get cut are likely to be very complex, with lots of give and take. My concern is that a few moderate senators could be enticed into accepting "mild" RKBA restrictions to secure Mexico's cooperation with a "Get Tough on Immigration" deal.

OTOH any UN / European arms deal is more likely to be straightforward, with fewer grey areas about what the treaty says and what it's intended to accomplish. Unlike the Mexicans, the Europeans are not under crushing domestic pressure to show that they can control their own borders and maintain law and order. They don't need the treaty to succeed. Their politicians are likely to score just as many (if not more) political points at home if the treaty is rejected by the US Senate. ("Tut tut tut, we tried our best, but you know those crazy American cowboys...") :rolleyes: Furthermore, some European countries have substantial arms exporting industries but tight gun controls at home; such countries may purposefully insert "poison pill" provisions into the treaty to guarantee US Senate rejection, allowing them to take a "Tough on Guns" stance with liberal voters while simultaneously keeping the gun factories humming and their labor unions happy. :rolleyes:
 
State of Missouri v. Holland, U.S. Game Warden, 252 U.S. 416.

Mr. Justice Holmes, for the majority:
... If the treaty is valid, there can be no dispute about the validity of the statute under Article I, § 8, as a necessary and proper means to execute the powers of the Government. ...

It is said that a treaty cannot be valid if it infringes the Constitution, that there are limits, therefore, to the treaty-making power, and that one such limit is that what an act of Congress could not do unaided, in derogation of the powers reserved to the States, a treaty cannot do. [this refers to the Weeks-McLean Act of 1913, which was struck down] ...

Whether the two cases cited were decided rightly or not, they cannot be accepted as a test of the treaty power. Acts of Congress are the supreme law of the land only when made in pursuance of the Constitution, while treaties are declared to be so when made under the authority of the United States. It is open to question whether the authority of the United States means more than the formal acts prescribed to make the convention. We do not mean to imply that there are no qualifications to the treaty-making power, but they must be ascertained in a different way. [Here, Justice Holmes begins to make a clear distinction between "normal" acts of Congress and Acts made pursuant to a Treaty] It is obvious that there may be matters of the sharpest exigency for the national wellbeing that an act of Congress could not deal with, but that a treaty followed by such an act could, and it is not lightly to be assumed that, in matters requiring national action, "a power which must belong to and somewhere reside in every civilized government" is not to be found. [With this pronouncement, Justice Holmes declares that powers not found within the Constitution, may be found by an act of Treaty - This is a negation of the 10th amendment, which says in effect: Those powers not enumerated, are forbidden to the central government] ... With regard to that we may add that, when we are dealing with words that also are a constituent act, like the Constitution of the United States, we must realize that they have called into life a being the development of which could not have been foreseen completely by the most gifted of its begetters. It was enough for them to realize or to hope that they had created an organism; it has taken a century and has cost their successors much sweat and blood to prove that they created a nation. The case before us must be considered in the light of our whole experience, and not merely in that of what was said a hundred years ago. [And here we have it - That "Living Constitution" that is the darling of progressives. We don't need to adhere to those old dead words, we can simply reinterpret them in a modern context!] The treaty in question does not contravene any prohibitory words to be found in the Constitution. [but, read on!] The only question is whether it is forbidden by some invisible radiation from the general terms of the Tenth Amendment. We must consider what this country has become in deciding what that Amendment has reserved. [Here, we see the death of the 10th amendment. No amendment need be enacted, merely a Treaty ratified by the Senate, to suborn the Constitution]

Now contrast the above with what Justice Black wrote in Reid v. Covert:

The obvious and decisive answer to this, of course, is that no agreement with a foreign nation can confer power on the Congress, or on any other branch of Government, which is free from the restraints of the Constitution. ...

There is nothing in Missouri v. Holland, 252 U.S. 416 , which is contrary to the position taken here. There the Court carefully noted that the treaty involved was not inconsistent with any specific provision of the Constitution. The Court was concerned with the Tenth Amendment which reserves to the States or the people all power not delegated to the National Government. To the extent that the United States can validly make treaties, the people and the States have delegated their power to the National Government and the Tenth Amendment is no barrier.​

Both Courts are using the assumption that if something is not expressly prohibited, then it is permitted. That is directly at odds with what the 10th amendment says:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.​

As long as the Court (and the Congress) hold to the idea that the government can do whatever it wants, as long as it is not "inconsistent" (that is, the Constitution does not expressly prohibit the action) with the Constitution, then we are at peril.
 
Both Courts are using the assumption that if something is not expressly prohibited, then it is permitted.

I would disagree that this is what the Covert opinion is saying. I think they took a broad view of the treaty making power and determined that this power had to be superior to the reserved powers to the States or Congress would effectively be unable to sign any treaty. I don't think the Covert opinion is suggesting that treaties can do anything not expressly prohibited.

As long as the Court (and the Congress) hold to the idea that the government can do whatever it wants, as long as it is not "inconsistent" (that is, the Constitution does not expressly prohibit the action) with the Constitution, then we are at peril.

I would agree with the general sentiment that some in the Judicial and Legislative branches hold these ideas and that they are inconsistent with good government; but in the case of the Second Amendment, there is an express prohibition in the Constitution (despite a mighty effort by many legal scholars to read it out of existence).
 
Covert Court said:
There the Court carefully noted that the treaty involved was not inconsistent with any specific provision of the Constitution.
Note that the above does not mean that the treaty involved is consistent with the delegated powers. Only that there is nothing inconsistent, if one takes the view that the 10th is something other than a part of the Constitution.

The problem here is that the 10th is part of the constitution (see Art V). Since it was ratified after the Constitution, it modifies said document. Specifically, any treaty made pursuant to Art. VI, cannot give the Congress a power or authority it did not have to begin with.

That was why the Weeks-McLean Act was being struck down. Congress had no authority. The Holland decision was flat wrong. Despite the feel good words of Justice Black in Covert, he explicitly agreed with the Holland decision.
 
Well, Holland is a 1920 case if I recall correctly. If you look at the treaty making power from a 1920 view of Constitutional interpretation and then say that Congress has no power to make any treaty that would affect the states rights under the 10th Amendment, you have severely curtailed Congress's ability to make treaties and called into question several existing treaties at the time.

So while I agree that the majority opinion in Holland was wrong, I can understand why they reached the decision they did.

Despite the feel good words of Justice Black in Covert, he explicitly agreed with the Holland decision.

Well, I am no expert in this area or even well-read in it; but it strikes me that Justice Black recognizes the problems with Holland but at the same time is bound by stare decisis and wants to get as much support as possible for his opinion in Reid v. Covert, in which he had 4 votes and 2 concurrences.

He writes an opinion that narrows Holland considerably while at the same time purporting to uphold it. This isn't unheard of in Supreme Court cases (for example, substantive due process incorporation of the 14th Amendment to create the same rights Slaughterhouse denied).

The only real problem that I see Holland presenting is that like all horror movie monsters, until you see the body and cut off its head, you'd better treat it as if it could jump back to life any time - and there are certainly people out there who would like to see it revived. However, I do not think the current Court isn't going to be the one that attempts that.
 
So a treaty signed by the President needs to be approved by Congress in a 2/3 majority. If ratified by Congress, does it does become "the law of the land" trumping the Constitution?
 
If ratified by Congress, does it does become "the law of the land" trumping the Constitution?

Sorta, if it is ratified by congress and does not contradict/ undermine the constitution. And, it would only deal with international affairs, not domestic ones, all it would take is one Pro 2A SCOTUS decision to throw it out.
 
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Maromero said:
So a treaty signed by the President needs to be approved by Congress in a 2/3 majority. If ratified by Congress, does it does become "the law of the land" trumping the Constitution?
No, it doesn't "trump the constitution."

A Google search will quickly turn up many sources which explain this. To cite just one example:

An especially interesting piece of evidence supporting the conclusion that the Treaty Clause was intended and understood by the Framing and Ratifying Conventions not to authorize the President and Senate, by a treaty, either (a) to override the Constitution, in whole or in part, or (b) to make domestic law (as distinguished from governance of relations with foreign governments), was provided by a statement by Jefferson--presumably reflecting at the time the prevailing opinion among governmental leaders also and especially leaders in Congress--in his 1801 A Manual of Parliamentary Practice. It was written by him as Vice President, while serving as the presiding officer of the Senate. It was reprinted in many editions in the following generations, being incorporated in full in the "Manual" of the Senate and in the "Manual" of the House of Representatives (as to the part applicable to the particular body in each case). Use of his Manual to some extent continues at the present writing. In this guide, Jefferson stated with regard to the Treaty Clause and power:

[Section 52.] "Treaties are legislative acts. A treaty is a law of the land. It differs from other laws only as it must have the consent of a foreign nation, being but a contract with respect to that nation . . . 2. By the general power to make treaties, the Constitution must have intended to comprehend only those objects which are usually regulated by treaty, and cannot be otherwise regulated. 3. It must have meant to except out of these the rights reserved to the States; for surely the President and Senate cannot do by treaty what the whole Government is interdicted from doing in any way." (Emphasis added.)​

This brief review of even a small part of the pertinent, historical evidence is sufficient to make inescapable the conclusion that the Framing and Ratifying Conventions intended the Treaty Clause to be limited by the Constitution; that in order to be valid a treaty, like any Federal law (Act of Congress), must be in strict conformity to the Constitution, as amended. The pertinent evidence supporting this proposition is so conclusive that not to accept it would mean (to use Jefferson's striking phraseology in another connection) that human reason must be surrendered as a vain and useless faculty, given to bewilder and not to guide us. The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly decided that the foregoing conclusion is correct, that the treaty-power under the Treaty Clause is limited by the Constitution as a whole; and the Court most recently confirmed this, upon full consideration, in the 1957 Reid case. [My emphasis.]


Note that the first sentence of this passage expressly states that treaties not only cannot override the Constitution, they cannot be used to make domestic law: they may only concern relations with foreign governments. Ratification by Congress doesn't mean that they become domestic law, just that Congress gets a say in whether a given treaty is adopted at all.
 
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The simple answer is that NO law can override the Constitution.

While a treaty may be "the supreme law of the land' it is still a LAW and must comport with the Constitution (a superior document).
 
I always thought the clause "... any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding." takes care of the "Treaty Supremacy" idiocy.
 
Vanya, your reference to LexRex is all well and good. However, you will note that foreign aid (which your article makes out to be unconstitutional), is widely used by the Congress, is it not?

Then there is that little matter of Missouri v. Holland, which is still law.

I submit that it is not as clear as everyone makes it.
 
Vanya, your reference to LexRex is all well and good. However, you will note that foreign aid (which your article makes out to be unconstitutional), is widely used by the Congress, is it not?

Actually, you missed the part where it says "This means that any donation abroad of funds or things, military or any other kind, by the Federal government--in order to be authorized by the Constitution--must contribute substantially and directly to the "common Defence... of the United States," meaning the national defense: the actual, military, physical defense of the American homeland."

It is the position of the US, and has been under Republican and Democratic administrations, that giving aid to poorer, unstable governments is essential to the defense of the US under the premise that any unstable nation poses a threat to the US as a sovereign nation.

Under that assumption foreign aid is directly in line with the constitution. Further, if you look at the countries the US gives aid to you can see the strategic military benefit to ensuring that said countries remain stable.
 
Antipitas said:
I submit that it is not as clear as everyone makes it.

Agreed.

But there are actually three separate issues here: The first is one of principle: can a treaty, once ratified by the Senate, legally trump the Constitution? I was addressing this in my post (which was moved here from another thread, I presume by Glenn Meyer when he closed that one) -- and I think it's fairly clear that the answer to that question is no.

Second, however, is that this is complicated by the fact that not everyone interprets the Constitution in the same way, and so people disagree as to what counts as "trumping" it.

And third, of course, is that the President and Congress now routinely flout the Constitution in the name of national security -- obvious examples being the egregious history of the Patriot Act (mainly under the previous Administration), the NSA's ongoing warrantless spying on U.S. citizens, and the U.S. Government's current project of assassinating Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki , who, no matter how reprehensible his support for terrorism, is an American citizen and entitled to due process.

Given they've established that national security trumps the Constitution, there's no reason to assume that they won't ignore it in other areas, or merely label everything a matter of "national security"...

So, yes, while simple in principle, of course it's far less clear in practice.
 
I believe Wildalaska wrote on another post (regarding the new S.Crt. appointment hearings) that it was going to be an intresting summer. In light of this discusion those words might as well be profetic.:eek:
 
DZcarry said:
It is the position of the US, and has been under Republican and Democratic administrations, that giving aid to poorer, unstable governments is essential to the defense of the US under the premise that any unstable nation poses a threat to the US as a sovereign nation.
I am aware of that interpretation, by both the Congress and the Court.

Just as I am aware that both interpret that once an item moves in interstate commerce, it is always in commerce (or as per Raich, any economic impact whatsoever, is commerce).

While I don't have to agree with these interpretations, I do have to abide by them.

Vanya? It was I who moved the posts. They were relevant to this thread.

I happen to agree with you on this, but I also know that despite what the Court says now, it is still a precedent that they can fall back upon.
 
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