Can a Rieliable HD 1911 with a Rail be purchased on a budget?

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Cossack

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Can a Reliable HD 1911 with a Rail be purchased on a budget?

I've been thinking of replacing the double-action pistol that we have as a "bump-in-the-night" gun with a railed 1911 because I like the manual safety. (I'm not a big fan of rails, but my wife really likes the ideas of having at least one pistol mounting a flashlight). Some night sights would be a helpful feature. I also have to keep the price pretty tame.

My current gun (a P229) is trustworthy, and so I want any 1911 that takes over its job to be very reliable. I'm hesitant to cut corners unless a budget gun is well proven and recommended. I've looked at the ATI FX45-K (can the the threaded barrel e replaced with a normal commander-length barrel?) and CDNN has quite a deal going on them. Anyone tried one of these? Would you trust them as a primary HD gun, or is it more of just a fun range gun?

The Girsan looks attractive and is very inexpensive, and I've heard few reports of problems. Still, I'm hesitant to trust it as a main HD weapon.

I'm leaning towards a Sig. It seems a used or new Nitron Rail on sale or a similar model can be had for $750 or so. It's stretching the budget a bit, but seems like the best for the money.

What about the Para-ordnance nite-tac single-action/Single stack pistols? The ones I have seen already have some options I like, such as the arched MSH, and I think I could find one for less than the Sig. But I've also heard of problems with Para reliability. Is this as trustworthy a gun as the sig?

Are there others I should be considering?

Thanks for any help you can give.
 
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...and I'm the polar opposite of Aguila Blanca. If you can find a used Sig 1911 Tacops or similar, they'll be around $800. I know that sounds like a lot, but the railed Tacops that I own is much more robust than my Colt 1911 that I carry. It has *never* even thought of jamming, I've used it in a few 3-gun matches and it's bombproof. I've had near 1,000 rounds through with with 100% reliability. Also, mine was a little more expensive than the base model because it's the threaded barrel. It'll be a wonderful HD gun with an AAC TiRant suppressor, 10 round Chip McCormicks and a nice laser/light unit on the rail.

Go with a Sig if you can afford it. The only experience I've had with Para is the Para P-10 1911, which, well, wasn't that great. But that's just me. The big thing is go into the shop and handle a Sig versus a traditional 1911 and see if the slide profile is to your liking (since the Sig has the large slab-sided slide to it).

...just don't expect to find many off-the-shelf holsters for a railed Sig profile 1911. That's really the major downside, is waiting for a holster for a few weeks.
 
I have had good luck with the sig 1911's as a few guys I know, I like them and own a few, on the other hand I hate para, had one it was terrible and will never own one again...

So you kind of have to go the way you feel comfortable with, because everyone is going to like something different..

I do like the idea of a railed 1911 for HD, I use one, a dan wesson specialist with a tlr2ir, crimson trace master grips, .400 corbon ported barrel, ect ect ect.. It works well and hopefully I never have to use it, way over budget since I invested around $3000 into that gun, but the same premise...

If I were looking for an affordable railed 1911 for HD I would look at either this used s&w http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=455587679
or this new sig http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=455543863

The nitron and scorpion will perform about the same, but the scorpion is bad ash, G10 magwells cerakote flat trigger ect
 
The Sig 1911 is a little notorious for being unreliable. I suspect it's a combination of teething issues with the external extractor and chambers that are on the tight side.
When I picked up my tac pack I paid $650 NIB, and I was happy.
When I fired it I was disappointed with the terrible unreliability. The thing would not fire three rounds in a row without a ftf with a variety of mags.
I called sig and they had me a shipping label 10 minutes later, sent the gun off and had it back a week later. The description included said the extractor had been worked on.
I did an extractor test on it and it passed with flying colors, all empties landing between 2 and 4 o' clock
The gun shoots much better now, but will still choke once in a while on a reload that my 1991A1 will then feed just fine. I think that is a matter of chamber tolerances though, with the colts chamber being a little on the bigger side and the Sigs being "match grade".

I was reading about the extractor issue and read that if you are going to go with an external extractor on a 1911, that at the time S&W had gotten the external extractor geometry right, and everybody else's design was incorrect. Something about the extractor on the s&w being engineered to be better in relation to the bore and could therefore extract more reliably than other designs. I will try to find that link for anybody interested.

Edit: here you go
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131
 
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I have read that Sig 1911s had extractor issues at first, but they've since addressed them - a good argument for a new one.

Aguila Blanca, what is it you dislike about Sigs? I have had great experiences with their P-series pistols, but I'm moving toward the Browning designs as a personal preference. I'd be interested to know why you dislike them so much before I dump money on one.

I've handled a few different models at a local shop and am happy with how they feel. They do look odd for a 1911, but so does any 1911 with a rail..and they do look like a Sig, to be sure. Sigs will never win any Beauty contests, although they sure have Glocks beat! :D

I currently use a Colt 1991a1 for everyday carry, and like a traditional gun, but I'm a little more open with the railed HD gun.
 
I think the early sigs had a couple issues, my sig target has never had an issue and was one of the first I ever seen, I can blast through rounds with no issues, reloads, semi wadcutters, ect it eats them all... My scorpion is a newer model and that shoot good too I have had good luck with both of them...

1911's are funny, I think a lot of it has to do with stacking tolerances, when you have min and max tolerances and nothing keeping the assembly from putting a bunch f parts that are at the edge of them tolerances in the same gun you get guns that aren't as good, it is rare, but it can happen...

The best rail guns I have ever seen {I own both} are the Dan wesson specialist and the les baer recon {caspian frame on the Baer rail guns}, you can get a dw for under $2000 and a baer for just over, I prefer the dw because the baer is a little less reliable and a lot harder to load a round into the chamber, it is a very very tight gun, at least the one I received it, I put around 400 rounds through it and I swear it got tighter, lol... You need 22" forearms to pull that slide back...

As with an HD weapon you should put a bunch of rounds through it, a couple boxes of ammo ran through and you will know if the gun is trustworthy or not, if you push 200 rounds of ball ammo down the tube and dont have a failure, shes good...
 
I have owned my Girsan over three years, shot hundreds of rounds through it, and it has never malfunctioned.

My stepbrother has owned his RIA for longer, shot it more, and has also had no problems.

Neither is fancy, but they both work. (The brothers and the pistols!)
 
I would choose a Para before I'd consider a SIG any day.

On second thought, that's not true ... because I would not eever consider a SIG.
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I'd never consider either.

But like you I'd trust an RIA 1911, inexpensive though it may be, over a 1911 from Para or Sig for HD/SD.

But back to the original question:

Can a Rieliable HD 1911 with a Rail be purchased on a budget?
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No, in my opinion -- not one that will compare favorably in reliability, on average, with a wide array of sub-$1000 non-1911 options. I would need to be in STI Trojan or Dan Wesson Heritage territory ($1,100-1,200) before I'd be comfortable with a 1911 in that role, and those don't come with the rail you're looking for. You'd need to spend a few hundred more to get a railed 1911 from either maker.

The easy answer to my mind is just to stick with your P229. If you want a 1911 for SD/HD, save up more money and buy a better one.
 
Cossack said:
Aguila Blanca, what is it you dislike about Sigs? I have had great experiences with their P-series pistols, but I'm moving toward the Browning designs as a personal preference. I'd be interested to know why you dislike them so much before I dump money on one.
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Sig should never have jumped into the 1911 market. When they did, they announced to the world that SIG Arms was going to build a better 1911 than anyone else. Then their first generation of 1911s came out and they were horrible. So bad that they stopped production for the better part of a year while they retooled. They were buying the slides and frames for that first generation from Caspian, and they blamed Caspian for all the issues. Strangely, when the cancellation of the contract left Caspian with a significant stock of undelivered SIG frames and slides, Caspian sold them as kits and I've never seen a single report that the kits had any problems.

Then came the second generation. It included a Commander, and it soon became obvious that the Commanders had significant problems. Not just reliability problems, but broken guns problems. Turns out the geniuses at SIG didn't know (or chose to ignore) that the underlugs of Commander barrels have to be contoured differently than those of Government models. So they were making guns with a built-in interference problem. I suppose they've fixed that by now, but I don't have any confirmation other than that the litany of broken SIG Commanders seems to have tapered off.

They are now in their third or fourth generation of 1911 -- all this over a pistol that's simple in operation, and that was designed by probably the foremost firearms genius the world has ever known. As 1911Tuner has remarked, people who think they can outsmart John Moses Browning are only fooling themselves. I have no use for a pistol created by people who think that "change" equals "better," when they don't even know how the pistol works and they use their customers as beta testers. Heck, I wanted to be an unpaid betra tester I'd buy a Windows 8 computer.

SIG's other guns are very good. They should have stuck with them instead of trying to outsmart the genius.
 
Can I ask: why a 1911 in particular for a HD gun?

Since it's for HD, presumably size isn't an isssue. There are plenty of modern, reliable .45's with safeties available for the same price (or less) than a budget 1911, without the reliability questions that come at that price point. The CZ-97B, the FNX-45 are both excellent guns in the $650-$750 range. I believe both Springfield and Smith & Wesson both have safety-equipped variants of their striker guns.
 
Can I ask: why a 1911 in particular for a HD gun?
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That's a very fair question. I like the manual safety, and the 1911 or BHP are my usual carry guns, so I like the idea of having the rail gun feel and function the same way. I haven't ruled out the S&W M&P series, but I have a preference for metal frames and hammers as a matter of taste.

I'll admit that I also just think 1911s are classy and cool. I like their aesthetics and history.

At the end of the day It's not worth giving up a reliable gun like the Sig for a questionable one. I want to see what's out there and if it can be done withing my budget. If not, I keep the Sig and wait.
 
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I can't speak to the older generations of the SIG 1911 but the newer ones are some of the finest production 1911's you can get and maybe the best value.
 
I can't speak to the older generations of the SIG 1911 but the newer ones are some of the finest production 1911's you can get and maybe the best value.
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Wow, I could hardly disagree more. Current Sig 1911s are pretty average values at best, in my opinion. While Exeter/Newington has managed to iron the functional issues for the most part, they've steadily cheapened the components over the years. At basically price point in the Sig 1911 lineup, there's a Dan Wesson or an STI that absolutely smokes the Sig in overall quality.
 
At basically price point in the Sig 1911 lineup, there's a Dan Wesson or an STI that absolutely smokes the Sig in overall quality.
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We must shop at vastly different stores or have vastly different ideas of what "basically the same price point" is. I've no experience with Dan Wesson but have only heard good things. STI is nice. Both are a good deal more expensive for many people.

And kudos to SIG if they've cheapened the product while improving it. The samples I've seen in person have been very well made, reliable, and accurate.
 
We must shop at vastly different stores or have vastly different ideas of what "basically the same price point" is. I've no experience with Dan Wesson but have only heard good things. STI is nice. Both are a good deal more expensive for many people.
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Look on Gunbroker. One or both brands have options available throughout Sig's price range.

And kudos to SIG if they've cheapened the product while improving it.
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They certainly haven't cheapened the product in that sense. Prices have only risen while the quality of components has declined.
 
I really should know better than to engage in a thread like this, but what the heck...I've got my fire extinguisher and I'm feelin' spunky!

I can't speak for the older Sigs, but I have a newer Scorpion. Paid $950 I think. So far I'm very happy with it. Only issue I've had is it didn't go fully into battery once or twice, but that was ammo (handloads). Turns out all I had to do was tighten up my crimp a little and the gun's been flawless ever since.

So, to the OP...if $950 is in your budget, the Sig Scorpion 1911 might be worth a look. And it has a rail.
 
You can get sig 1911's for under $750, there is not sti or dw {1911} for under $750, just saying...;)

Rail guns are expensive, sig makes some affordable ones...

I am not saying this is here in this thread, but has anyone noticed that people that don't own or never owned a specific firearm or product still feels inclined to comment on a what a piece of junk it is? I find it odd...

I own and owned some sigs 1911's they are worth what they charge for them...

As far as using the 1911 for HD, if you have the 1911 in muscle memory it is a good idea, IMO its my favorite HD weapon available...
 
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STI has the Spartan in that price range. it's kind of an STI anyway. I've never seen a NIB DW for under $750. Awesome if they lowered the price on them though.
 
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