Campus Carry

1) Guns don't belong in schools.

2) Students are uncomfortable potentially sitting next to hidden guns that they will never see or know about; or might not even be there at all. But still...

Counterpoints?
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1. What makes schools any different from the work place? We trust college professors, for example, with our kids. Why not give them the power to protect? We have ex-military students and faculty members, and we trust them to defend our country but not their lives?

2. Well, then those students will have to spend the rest of their time in court houses, federal buildings, and jails, because those are pretty much the only other places where guns can't be carried by lawful CCW permit holders in many states. And anyway why should your discomfort castrate my civil rights? I'm uncomfortable with people talking about food in the hour before my lunch break, because it makes me hungry and distracts me from my work. Should my discomfort stifle their 1st amendment rights?

And, most important of all, why do we think that this the prohibition of guns on campus does anything to enhance public safety? (Hint: it doesn't.)
 
I think that the property rights issue regarding private colleges is bogus. For example, no private college can discriminate with respect to race, religion, or ethnic background without endangering federal financial aid to its students.

To me, those persons who bring up the "private property" issue are being rather doctrinaire, IMHO. There are many examples where private property rights are limited for good reason. I personally dislike that argument unless the college also refuses to accept any government aid (Pell Grants, government student loans, Texas state aid in the case of the school where I teach, etc.).

Private property rights are not absolute any more than than any other right. To my mind, the right of self-defense against criminal attack is much closer to being an absolute right than even property rights.
 
The argument that "guns don't belong in schools" falls on several counts. First of all, most mass shootings seem to occur in "gun free zones". Even the Ft. Hood shooting took place in a zone where nobody but the authorized security personnel and the shooter were actually armed. And, gun free zones tend to be attractive places for criminals to come looking for easy prey.

Next counterpoint: Does this mean that, as a 62-year old professor you believe that I become too irresponsible to carry just because I work on a college campus? What about graduate students, who, by definition, already have a bachelor's degree of some sort? What about non-traditional age students who may be getting their bachelor's degree at age 40 instead of 18-22? Are they too irresponsible just because they happen to cross the boundries of a college campus?

Finally, the proposed change that was defeated here in Texas that would have allowed CHL holders in campus buildings (it is already legal in parking lots, on sidewalks, etc.) did not lower any of the standards for getting a CHL. Applicants would still need to be 21 or older, no felony convictions, no Class A or B misdemeanor convictions in the last five years, not chemically dependent, and meet all of the same criteria as before, including a criminal background check using fingerprints by both Texas DPS and the FBI.

The same students who were considered to be too immature to carry in campus buildings can still get a CHL and carry anywhere else that concealed carry is legal in Texas, including the state capitol building. At the capitol building, there is even a fast-track entrance for CHL holders to bypass the metal detectors and whatnot. Now, what is there about a campus that makes somebody who can be trusted in our capitol building suddenly become untrustworthy on campus, even if they are a 40-year old student or a 62-year old professor?
 
As for the argument about students being uncomfortable next to somebody with a CHL who is carrying, what about Wal Mart? Should they be uncomfortable there? People carry in Wal Mart. In fact, the "Wal Mart Walk" is one of the rites of passage for new CHL holders.

And, concealed means concealed! Showing others your weapon when you are carrying concealed is grounds for losing the CHL in most states.
 
What do ya'll think about being able to conceal carry on college campuses? I don't really see how it's different than carrying at Wal-Mart. They are all adults. There are more kids at Wal-Mart than on a college campus.
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The anti cowards and don't see college students as adults. To them they are still babies and children that should not be allowed to think for or take care of themselves. They still need to be coddled as if they are still breast feeding.

I've read many comments on gun control group pages such as "what's next, arming kindergarten?" and other nonsense.
 
Why no campus carry?

1. The administrations are totally against it. One reason is the great liability concern - the same that causes businesses to ban carry, parking lots guns in cars, etc. This cancer of money whores infects both liberal and conservative institutions. It's all the money.

2. Many academics are anti-firearms. The reasons are complex. However, I note that some of the so-called conservative pro gun faculty don't open their mouths on the issue. Been there and seen that. Where's that barf similie? :D

3. Some concerns that youth are irresponsible. Working with them, we know at that age some are very mercurial in temperment and emotional. Drugs, drinks, relationships, sports rivalries, ethnic and religious nuts, etc.

Thus, the small slice of 21 year olds who could carry are worrisome. However, we disinfranchise the staff and faculty who could carry. Also, we disinfranchise the older students, returning to school, grad students, etc.

I had a conversation with an older undergrad (returning Marine vet) - he's ok with carry but has some concern about the young ones with no life experience and living in the dorms.

While probably heresy to pure RKBA and the student carry associations, some compromssie (:eek:) for older students and fac/stuff might fly.

4. The private property folks - since many schools are private - it's a castle, I'm king poopy and you can't come on my property unless his majesty says so, blah, blah. We've done that enough.

5. Colleges are sacred, like churches - etc. so we violate our sense of morality by letting guns there - don't we pollute their mission, sacred, blah, blah.

6. The training issue and shooting an innocent. It is a debate whether training is necessary for CCW. Well, for the common - here's a mugger - go away or get out of my house incident, it seems the untrained usually come through OK. It would probably be true for similar crimes on campus.

However, as mentioned the focus on campus carry is the rampage. Cho and VT are the archetype of an incident. If you are going to engage in a gun fight in a high intensity many round fight surrounded by innocents, then you might want to know what you are doing.

The fear of hitting an innocent is very potent. Studies show many folk don't think it is acceptable to kill an innocent even to save others. Morality research is a big deal lately.

Now you might say - well, if you save 30 and kill one poor innocent kill, the risk ratio shows a great benefit - but lots of folks don't think that way.

How about this? Nut comes into your class with a gun. You draw - Bang, Bang. BG Dead but Suzy Cheerleader has one in the head. That has happened in police shootings. Note, BG just raved and didn't do anything. That has happened also. You say - well, he had a gun. Others say he was just raving and we should have let him talk. Things will go bad for you.

Might it be reasonable that you train to shoot under some serious pressure as compared to being a hero of the square range.

It is feared that the untrained will be more likely to kill an innocent in a high intensity incident. Heard this from folks who are gun neutral. They fear the blowhard gun proponent.

I note that in TX, we could have had campus carry if Gov. Big Hair, I shoot Coyotes, Make me Pres-o-dent, Come to my Heavenly Rally had used his powers to ease the way of the bill. He didn't. Oh, my - guess some special interests. However, we did get the parking lot bill so that's a victory. Better luck next time.

Besides, the pure antagonism to the RKBA, I opine that the fear of the nutty kid is the biggest stumbling block. That's going to be hard to beat and as I suggested an unpalatable compromise to some might be the way to go.

A foot in the door might aid in reducing a tightly restricted campus carry law if no bad things occur. That has been a successful strategy on other RKBA issues.

That’s my take on the issue, being there and speaking up in the issue (by myself- I might add).
 
Well done Glenn! You lay it out pretty well. I have always had mixed feelings about Campus CCW and you have articulated some of those concerns very well.

I kept a loaded gun (Ruger Super Black Hawk .44 Magnum) in my Frat house and apartment for two of the years that I was at college. I did not carry to class or around the campus.

I had no issues there and when a serial killer murdered two coeds in their beds my Frat Brothers wanted to know if I still "had that big ass gun" around as they were a bit spooked.

However, the idea of carrying that gun around campus (really not feasible for a Super Black Hawk) was a line in the sand I did not wish to cross.

Thanks for your comments.

PS My son who has a TN CCW did keep his gun with him in a house that he shared with some other students that was adjacent to a bad part of town. He had a derelict come to the front yard one night asking to use the phone and he had his SIG P220 .45 in his back pocket and told the guy to get lost. He told me he was glad to have the gun and knew he had it to rely on if things turned ugly. He could not carry on Campus.
 
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Its allowed here in Colorado, never had any issues except for one adviser who had a non-legally binding sign on his door that said "no weapons allowed in this office". But he also had an upside down American flag in his office amongst other things, I ended up switching advisers.
 
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