calling all LONG RANGE SHOOTING experts!
- Thread starter beerengineer
- Start date
The answer to the original question is yes. Just there are more variables than simply staying supersonic although that is a major factor.
Might be hard given the round as i'm not familiar with how fast a .300RUM will launch the heavier .30 cal bullets.
Brm, he really didn't ask that technical of a question, it's more of general answer of yes or no. That and Barts statement was to an extent wrong. Accuracy is accuracy, idk why some people tend to think that you can buy fundamental skill that is long range shooting. As i said before it's more so the shooter at long range than the rifle. If the load he has shoots 1/2Moa at 100yds then it's up to him to ensure the rifle maintains that accuracy over range. There are so many fundamental user techniques that can change the POI when shooting at extreme distance. Shooting to a very large extent is consistency the ability to replicate the same action again and again and again to get the same results. Shooting at the proper moment of your respiratory cycle, trigger pull not deviating, shouldering the rifle consistently, etc. are all crucial parts of it. Practicing tight reloading tolerances (assuming you reload) so that your ES and SD are very consistent. That's only half of it the other is the environmentals. So simply saying that a rifle isn't capable of shooting good at distance because it's a factory rifle when so many other variables affect POI is nonsense IMO.
Might be hard given the round as i'm not familiar with how fast a .300RUM will launch the heavier .30 cal bullets.
Brm, he really didn't ask that technical of a question, it's more of general answer of yes or no. That and Barts statement was to an extent wrong. Accuracy is accuracy, idk why some people tend to think that you can buy fundamental skill that is long range shooting. As i said before it's more so the shooter at long range than the rifle. If the load he has shoots 1/2Moa at 100yds then it's up to him to ensure the rifle maintains that accuracy over range. There are so many fundamental user techniques that can change the POI when shooting at extreme distance. Shooting to a very large extent is consistency the ability to replicate the same action again and again and again to get the same results. Shooting at the proper moment of your respiratory cycle, trigger pull not deviating, shouldering the rifle consistently, etc. are all crucial parts of it. Practicing tight reloading tolerances (assuming you reload) so that your ES and SD are very consistent. That's only half of it the other is the environmentals. So simply saying that a rifle isn't capable of shooting good at distance because it's a factory rifle when so many other variables affect POI is nonsense IMO.
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I actually agree with the OP to a degree. My first year shooting 1000 yard F Class was with a stock PSS and a 14X scope. I averaged 187 out of 200 across 6 separate matches which I thought was decent. My point was that folks who are in the long range game do not take it lightly, so you need to adjust your expectations accordingly when posing a question.
oldmanFCSA
New member
Bore-riders are typically CNC turned solid Brass projectiles, designed to have reduced diameter front band of near bore diameter or with very light engraving to enable seating into lands of rifling, with final driving band of full rifling diameter to ensure a full gas seal. Minimizing projectile run-out in case permits bore-rider to be near perfectly aligned in barrel. Projectiles tend to be long for caliber raising Ballistic Coeficient. Reduced bearing length reduces gas pressure allowing higher charges to be utilized to achieve a higher velocity than with standard projectiles.
Range is in Northern Wisconsin on a natural gas pipeline route. Not legal to shoot there, but landowner allows a few of us as long as we are not above the pipe itself, which is buried 36" minimum, surrounded by crushed rock.
No pictures for evidence.
Didn't want them for "evidence"- I certainly believe ya- just never heard of an actual range for comps that large and wondered what one would look like...
So, the front of the bullet is bore dia, so it just glides along, while the rear has a groove dia. "band"? Is the ogive shape typical of high BC bullets? Is the band exactly the same size as the grooves, or slightly oversize?
So, the front of the bullet is bore dia, so it just glides along, while the rear has a groove dia. "band"? Is the ogive shape typical of high BC bullets? Is the band exactly the same size as the grooves, or slightly oversize?
The reason I mention that a rifle that shoots small groups at short range but they won't maintain the same angular value at long range is simple physics and actual firing tests.
First off, muzzle velocity spread causes elevation errors. A 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity may cause only 1/10th inch vertical shot stringing at 100 yards. At 1000, vertical stringing can easily be 15 to 25 inches depending on the bullet's BC and muzzle velocity average.
Second, the subtle air movements cause bullets to move sideways and sometimes up or down. The more time a bullet's in the air, the more their trajectory gets altered by atmospheric conditions.
Third, when several bullets of the same make and model are fired at exactly the same muzzle velocity, they won't all have the same BC all the way to the target. The slight imbalance each one has makes them have slightly different drag values due to coning. This causes vertical shot stringing as their BC has a 1 to 2 percent spread; sometimes more.
Add 'em all up and the result is groups open up about 5 to 15% for each hundred yards past the first hundred, depending on the magnitude of all these factors. Note the group size at the muzzle is zero MOA; it gets bigger the further down range the bullet goes and settles down for its in-flight trajectory; no two of which are exactly the same.
First off, muzzle velocity spread causes elevation errors. A 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity may cause only 1/10th inch vertical shot stringing at 100 yards. At 1000, vertical stringing can easily be 15 to 25 inches depending on the bullet's BC and muzzle velocity average.
Second, the subtle air movements cause bullets to move sideways and sometimes up or down. The more time a bullet's in the air, the more their trajectory gets altered by atmospheric conditions.
Third, when several bullets of the same make and model are fired at exactly the same muzzle velocity, they won't all have the same BC all the way to the target. The slight imbalance each one has makes them have slightly different drag values due to coning. This causes vertical shot stringing as their BC has a 1 to 2 percent spread; sometimes more.
Add 'em all up and the result is groups open up about 5 to 15% for each hundred yards past the first hundred, depending on the magnitude of all these factors. Note the group size at the muzzle is zero MOA; it gets bigger the further down range the bullet goes and settles down for its in-flight trajectory; no two of which are exactly the same.
Bart, your first and third point deal more specifically with ammo rather than with the rifle. The second point deals with the shooter's responsibility. All of those factors do deal with physics, but NONE of them deal with the rifle. If you have done extensive physics experimentation, you will know that the elimination of outside variables is key to proper results. Also, all of these variables that are present in the test must be listed as DEGREES OF ERROR in the posted results. That doesn't mean error with the system being tested, but rather error with the method of experimentation.
Blackops_2 is 100% true.
Just one little example: Bergers 175 gr 308 @ 2600 FPS @ 1000 yards.
3 MPH Drift at 3 o'clock = 25 inch drift
5 MPH Drift at 3 o'clock = 41.5 inch drift
Now "two" givens: There is no such thing as "no wind" at 1000 yards.
And
Few if any can tell pick up a 2 MOA wind difference at 1000 yards.
The calmer it looks, the harder its going to be, because you are going to have different wind at different yard lines.
To see this, find what you think is a No Wind day, the at every yard line between 100 and 1000 pop smoke. You'll see its going every which way.
That is just one example, without taking into account, temp, humidity, light, SD, etc etc.
A 2 MOA rifle is capable of cleaning the 1000 yard Service Rifle target, yet you see few Perfect Scores at 1000 yards.
It's the shooter, not the equipment.
Use a little common sense, I'm not saying a shooter can make a piece of crap that shoots wash tub size groups at 100 yards, I'm saying a half way diecent rifle and ammo.
Here is an example: My best 1000 yard match was at 29 Palms. I shot four matches that day, Any rifle any sight, any rifle iron sight, Servicer rifle and team match.
My any rifle was a 300 winchester, my service rifle was a M1A. We know the 300 would handle the wind better then the 308, yet my best scores that day was with the M1A......why, not because the 308 out shoots the 300 WM, but because I spent much more time shooting the M1A. It was my ability to shoot the M1A not the gun that gave me the better scores.
Remember Carlos Hathcock used a Model 70 that was capable of 2 MOA.
Not sure I buy that either. Errors, either the rifle, ammo, shooter, weather, etc don't necessarlary vary in value, but subtends at longer ranges.
At 100 yards the error is still there, but its difficult to see, but when it subtends at longer ranges where it can be detected.
Shoot a 5 shot group. Its not a perfect circle. Draw a line from the center of each shot to make a shape............its gonna be a wierd shape, and you can't tell where the acutaul center is therefore you can tell the acutual error.
You can guess, and the guy who has the most rounds down range is going to be able to make the best guess.
Its the shooter.
Short answer:
Can you do the big 20 or triple 20 whatever you call it in your neck of the woods. 20 shots in 20 minutes inside a 20" circle. If you can you are a shooter with a shooters gun so why would another 750 yards be that much more of a handicap. Even if the bullet goes subsonic and it probably will you should still be able to hit a vehicle or building or put one close enough to a lone man to make him duck his head and cause him to wonder where in the blue blazes did that come from.
Can you do the big 20 or triple 20 whatever you call it in your neck of the woods. 20 shots in 20 minutes inside a 20" circle. If you can you are a shooter with a shooters gun so why would another 750 yards be that much more of a handicap. Even if the bullet goes subsonic and it probably will you should still be able to hit a vehicle or building or put one close enough to a lone man to make him duck his head and cause him to wonder where in the blue blazes did that come from.
Using the max published velocity in the Sierra Manual of 2900FPS (Again, with 6 1/2 grains LESS powder than the OP said he plans on using.)
At Sea level the bullet will drop subsonic at around 1500 yards. The higher you are, the farther that number is. At 4400 feet elevation, it is out to ~1800 yards.
Oh, and I was curious and checked the Hodgdon site, their max load for Rotumbo with a 220gr bullet is actually lower than Sierras, so you will be a full 7 grains over max using that data.
Maybe shooting glasses are not enough, you should probably wear a full face helmet.
And a Sendero is a fine starter rifle for long range shooting. If it can hold 1 MOA at 200 yards, that is plenty. The shooter is the biggest factor.
At Sea level the bullet will drop subsonic at around 1500 yards. The higher you are, the farther that number is. At 4400 feet elevation, it is out to ~1800 yards.
Oh, and I was curious and checked the Hodgdon site, their max load for Rotumbo with a 220gr bullet is actually lower than Sierras, so you will be a full 7 grains over max using that data.
Maybe shooting glasses are not enough, you should probably wear a full face helmet.
And a Sendero is a fine starter rifle for long range shooting. If it can hold 1 MOA at 200 yards, that is plenty. The shooter is the biggest factor.
Scharfschuetzer
New member
As mentioned by many already, the little variables can cause inaccuracy at long range. Position, technique, weapon and optics have been pretty well covered. Let me add some ammo/bullet ideas into the discussion.
A rifle that shoots sub-moa at short range may not do so at long range due to ammo issues.
1. A bullet that is marginally stable will become less stable as it slows. This is of concern when shooting the very low drag bullets or long for calibre bullets used in long range shooting.
Example: My M-70 .223 varmiter modified for NM shooting with a 1-9" twist heavy barrel shooting 75 grain Hornady A-Max bullets. I worked up a load to shoot accross the NM course (200-600 yards). At 100 yards it was promising with 10 shot groups around .8 of an inch or sub-moa. At 200 yards the groups were slightly over 2" or not quite MOA and the bullet holes in the target suggested some yawing of the projo at that range. At 300 yards, over 2 1/2 MOA groups and more evidence of instability. No telling what they would have done at 600 yards, but it wouldn't have been pretty.
If your 30 calibre barrel exhibits the above tendencies, try the Sierra Palma Match bullet of 155 grains. It is often used in 1 in 14" twist barrels and does a great job in the 1 in 12" barrels often found on the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester rifles.
2. Mention was made for velocity spread affecting verticle dispersion.
If your are going to shoot at very long range, chronograph your loads and work towards the smallest standard deviation possible. I work in 10 shot groups for both accuracy and chrono readings in my match rifles. For long range shooting, your ammo should be below an SD of 10 in my opinion. This should minimize those uncalled flyers at 12:00 and 6:00 O'clock on the target.
Primers and powder? Your choice and everyone has their preferences, but I like the Federal LR Match primer and stick powders for my 7.62 and 30/06 rifles.
Case weight can be a significant factor in the above quest. Get an average weight for the lot of cases you are prepping and then discard any one that is obviously over or under by a percentage that you feel comfortable with. Of course make sure they are trimmed to length and have had their primer pockets uniformed before weighing.
3. Bullet runout
While I usually don't bother to turn necks for ammo for short to mid range matches (100 to 600 yards), I definately do so for the long ones. I find that using ammo with a runout of .004 or less results in good scores at 800, 900 and a thousand yards. By extrapolation, they should do well at further distances. Now I don't have any empirical proof that this is the case, my scores seem to be better when the effort to true 'em up had been made.
I might add that if a neck takes an excessive amount of trimming on one side, get rid of it. That thickness may extend down the full length of the case and better shots then me feel that this may also contribute to uncalled flyers.
When shooting at long range, you have enough things conspiring against you and your shooting. If you minimize your ammo issues and have confidence in your loads, you've kicked one major toad in the road out of the way.
On the job? That's a lot easier for me. I just shoot what they issue me!
A rifle that shoots sub-moa at short range may not do so at long range due to ammo issues.
1. A bullet that is marginally stable will become less stable as it slows. This is of concern when shooting the very low drag bullets or long for calibre bullets used in long range shooting.
Example: My M-70 .223 varmiter modified for NM shooting with a 1-9" twist heavy barrel shooting 75 grain Hornady A-Max bullets. I worked up a load to shoot accross the NM course (200-600 yards). At 100 yards it was promising with 10 shot groups around .8 of an inch or sub-moa. At 200 yards the groups were slightly over 2" or not quite MOA and the bullet holes in the target suggested some yawing of the projo at that range. At 300 yards, over 2 1/2 MOA groups and more evidence of instability. No telling what they would have done at 600 yards, but it wouldn't have been pretty.
If your 30 calibre barrel exhibits the above tendencies, try the Sierra Palma Match bullet of 155 grains. It is often used in 1 in 14" twist barrels and does a great job in the 1 in 12" barrels often found on the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester rifles.
2. Mention was made for velocity spread affecting verticle dispersion.
If your are going to shoot at very long range, chronograph your loads and work towards the smallest standard deviation possible. I work in 10 shot groups for both accuracy and chrono readings in my match rifles. For long range shooting, your ammo should be below an SD of 10 in my opinion. This should minimize those uncalled flyers at 12:00 and 6:00 O'clock on the target.
Primers and powder? Your choice and everyone has their preferences, but I like the Federal LR Match primer and stick powders for my 7.62 and 30/06 rifles.
Case weight can be a significant factor in the above quest. Get an average weight for the lot of cases you are prepping and then discard any one that is obviously over or under by a percentage that you feel comfortable with. Of course make sure they are trimmed to length and have had their primer pockets uniformed before weighing.
3. Bullet runout
While I usually don't bother to turn necks for ammo for short to mid range matches (100 to 600 yards), I definately do so for the long ones. I find that using ammo with a runout of .004 or less results in good scores at 800, 900 and a thousand yards. By extrapolation, they should do well at further distances. Now I don't have any empirical proof that this is the case, my scores seem to be better when the effort to true 'em up had been made.
I might add that if a neck takes an excessive amount of trimming on one side, get rid of it. That thickness may extend down the full length of the case and better shots then me feel that this may also contribute to uncalled flyers.
When shooting at long range, you have enough things conspiring against you and your shooting. If you minimize your ammo issues and have confidence in your loads, you've kicked one major toad in the road out of the way.
On the job? That's a lot easier for me. I just shoot what they issue me!
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GlockedNLoded32
New member
In a second season episode of Future Weapons the host (Richard Machowicz, a former Navy SEAL) engaged in a shooting competition with another sniper. Mac achieved a cold-bore first-shot "kill" at 2,500 yards (2,286 m) using a .416 Barrett M99 rifle while his competition, using a .50 BMG, required three shots to achieve a "kill". The .416 Barrett M99 rifle Mr. Mac used during this competition was equipped with a Barrett Optical Ranging System (BORS) module attached to the telescopic sight
.416 Barrett ballistic comparison with other long-range sniper cartridges
Cartridge Bullet weight gr (g) Muzzle velocity ft/s (m/s) Muzzle energy ft·lbf (J)
.338 Lapua Magnum 250 (16.2) 2970 (905.2) 4893 (6634.0)[11]
.338 Lapua Magnum 300 (19.44) 2717 (828.1) 4919 (6669.2)[12]
.408 Chey Tac 305 (19.8) 3500 (1066.8) 8298 (11,250.5)[13]
.408 Chey Tac 419 (27.2) 3000 (914.4) 8376 (11,356.3)[13]
.416 Barrett 400 (25.9) 3250 (990.6) 9380 (12,717.5)
.50 BMG 700 (45) 2978 (907.7) 13,971 (18,942.1)
.416 Barrett ballistic comparison with other long-range sniper cartridges
Cartridge Bullet weight gr (g) Muzzle velocity ft/s (m/s) Muzzle energy ft·lbf (J)
.338 Lapua Magnum 250 (16.2) 2970 (905.2) 4893 (6634.0)[11]
.338 Lapua Magnum 300 (19.44) 2717 (828.1) 4919 (6669.2)[12]
.408 Chey Tac 305 (19.8) 3500 (1066.8) 8298 (11,250.5)[13]
.408 Chey Tac 419 (27.2) 3000 (914.4) 8376 (11,356.3)[13]
.416 Barrett 400 (25.9) 3250 (990.6) 9380 (12,717.5)
.50 BMG 700 (45) 2978 (907.7) 13,971 (18,942.1)
beerengineer
New member
Sorry guys, I was dangerously mistaken. Does this load data sound better?
220 GR. Retumbo 89.0 2905 61,900 PSI My buddy, shooting coach, spotter is a world champion .50 cal bench rest shooter and he will be helping work up my loads, so I’m confident we’ll get close. I’ll have access to 1500 yards, but another obstacle will be finding the land and getting permission to shoot 1760 yards.
220 GR. Retumbo 89.0 2905 61,900 PSI My buddy, shooting coach, spotter is a world champion .50 cal bench rest shooter and he will be helping work up my loads, so I’m confident we’ll get close. I’ll have access to 1500 yards, but another obstacle will be finding the land and getting permission to shoot 1760 yards.
bpeezer states:
All barrels unevenly modify the bullets that are shot in them. Good ones, rifled and chambered the best way, do it the least.
Those are the main reasons why 100 yard group size doesn't carry through all the way down range. And there's no way a Remington factory rifled and chambered barrel will stay inside 3/4ths MOA at 1000 yards. The best ones made were used in their 40X target rifles and they were not that accurate at long range. But they will shoot 3/4 MOA at 100 yards. Only the best aftermarket barrels typically used in match winning long range benchrest and prone rifles will stay under 3/4 MOA at a thousand.
All barrels unevenly modify the bullets that are shot in them. Good ones, rifled and chambered the best way, do it the least.
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ES and SD is due to load combination and reloading tolerance which is user based.
Wind is yet again another shooter application of problem and doesn't equate to the rifle.
Your last statement of BC variation is true. Which would be why you would be best suited to use Bryan Litz recorded G7 BCs rather than factory findings.
By your standards noone should be able to shoot Sub-MOA at any distance past 100yds with a factory rifle.
How are you so set on equipment being a more important factor than skill? I guarantee there are people that shoot inside 3/4ths MOA @ 1000yds with factory remington rifles. Hell the savage team shoots nothing but their rifles for Comp and they have plenty to show as far as winning goes. Yet no krieger, bartlein, broughton, Shilen, etc. No surgeon, badger, AI, lawton, stiller, etc. Nothing custom about it, factory actions, and factory barrels.
Note: I'm not discrediting custom barrels, actions, or rifles in whole. Just pointing out that again it's the user not the rifle in almost every case. There are very few people in this world that can shoot the accuracy difference between two custom actions or two barrels that both shoot 1/2 MOA.
http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=2K5nTzegQ
"We continue to be thrilled with the winning results from Team Savage. It says a lot about them and it says a lot about the rifles," Savage VP of Sales & Marketing Brian Herrick said. "We're not trying to tell anybody that they can just buy a Savage and shoot like Darrell, John, Monte and Stan, but it should be fairly obvious by now that shooting stock Savage rifles isn't holding these guys back at all."
Wind is yet again another shooter application of problem and doesn't equate to the rifle.
Your last statement of BC variation is true. Which would be why you would be best suited to use Bryan Litz recorded G7 BCs rather than factory findings.
By your standards noone should be able to shoot Sub-MOA at any distance past 100yds with a factory rifle.
How are you so set on equipment being a more important factor than skill? I guarantee there are people that shoot inside 3/4ths MOA @ 1000yds with factory remington rifles. Hell the savage team shoots nothing but their rifles for Comp and they have plenty to show as far as winning goes. Yet no krieger, bartlein, broughton, Shilen, etc. No surgeon, badger, AI, lawton, stiller, etc. Nothing custom about it, factory actions, and factory barrels.
Note: I'm not discrediting custom barrels, actions, or rifles in whole. Just pointing out that again it's the user not the rifle in almost every case. There are very few people in this world that can shoot the accuracy difference between two custom actions or two barrels that both shoot 1/2 MOA.
http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=2K5nTzegQ
"We continue to be thrilled with the winning results from Team Savage. It says a lot about them and it says a lot about the rifles," Savage VP of Sales & Marketing Brian Herrick said. "We're not trying to tell anybody that they can just buy a Savage and shoot like Darrell, John, Monte and Stan, but it should be fairly obvious by now that shooting stock Savage rifles isn't holding these guys back at all."
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Blackops_2 says to me:
I've not had more than 1/4 MOA error calculating sight settings for Sierra's 30 caliber HPMK's using their software set up for measured atmospheric conditions at 600, 800 and 1000 yards on the range. I doubt Litz's numbers would be any more accurate for those bullets. They may be better than some other types and/or makes.
If that's what you think, do so, but it's not what I think. You've misinterpreted my comments rearranging them into some standard which I don't understand. Savage may well do so as they are probably the most accurate center fire factory rifles made today.
Well, nobody I know of can consistantly shoot a hand-held rifle more accurate than it can from a machine rest. Which means however small (or big) the holding area is on target a human aims and fires his handheld rifle at, the accuracy of the rifle (and naturally, the ammo) will add to it. Somebody holding 1/10th MOA on a 1000 yard target and breaking their shots inside of that with a rifle and ammo combination that shoots no worse than 6/10ths MOA will end up shooting no better than 7/10ths MOA, even in a dead calm with no air movement whatsoever.
No worse than 3/4ths? Name one; I want to contact him, or her. If that person convinces me their Remmy shoots no worse than 3/4ths MOA, then you're right. Note that I said before: "shoots no worse than 3/4 MOA at 1000." That means they've got to average 1/3 to 1/2 MOA. Shooting under 3/4ths MOA once in a while doesn't count.