calling all LONG RANGE SHOOTING experts!

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beerengineer

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Great Forum. I don't post much but check out this site almost daily. I have a long range question. More of a theoretical question. If you could keep your bullet supersonic out to a certain distance, oh I don't know, say approximatly 1760 yards, theoretically, could you hit a target at that range?

Here's my equipment: Remington 700 Sendero .300 Ultra Mag. Nightforce Benchrest 12 x 42 sitting on top of a AICS stock. I plan on starting out with Sierra Match King 220 grain bullets with 96 grains of Rutombo.

This rifle has been more or less sub MOA out to 1000, when I do my part. My skeptical buddies say no way. I say why not try. Any of you long range freaks out there ever attempt that magical mile shot? It sure is fun to think about.
 
Depends on transonic stability among other things. But generally yes thats part of it.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles.htm

I think you would enjoy Bryans book here are some articles to take a look at further explaining ballistics of long range shooting.

On magpuls "art of the precision rifle" they take the .308 to 1760yds. Given they're at 3600' MSL.
 
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Regarding beerengineer's comment on his Rem. Sendero:
This rifle has been more or less sub MOA out to 1000
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Is that "sub MOA" what it's shot most of the time?

I find that a ways beyond believable for a Remington factory rifle. While it may well be what its smaller groups are, it's the largest ones that reflect its real accuracy. Small stuff is only "occasional" accuracy.
 
Well, scientifically speaking, why not?

There's a guy on "another" forum, well known to those in the long-range sport here, that's working on a weapon system that will shoot sub-moa to 5000 yards (or meters, can't recall). On paper, it works.

Anyway, more "real world", the .408 Cheytac is supersonic to 2200 yards.
No "thoretical" about it, it does it, and guys shoot it at that range and further- and hit what they're aiming at.

I don't know enough about the ballistics of the .300 UM to comment. But, I would strongly suspect that keeping a .30 cal bullet supersonic at 2000 yards isn't gonna happen. They're just not large enough to have a BC high enough, to get it done. Simply put, you need BIG projectiles for the high BC's necessary for ultra-long range.


The issue becomes hitting the target.
Have you ever shot, or even looked through a scope, at a target 1000 yards away? 600 yards?
Environmental conditions are the problem.

Mirage. Wind- it could be blowing ten different directions, at ten different speeds, at a distance of over a mile.

Rob Furlong has the world's longest confirmed kill, with a .50 BMG (Tac-50) at 2,657 yards.
FOUR SECOND flight time.

Here's some comparisons at 2000 (copied and pasted, but I believe correct):

At 2000 yards, the flight time for a 750 gr. AMAX out of a .50 and flight time is 3.6 seconds. Velocity at 2000 yards for the AMAX is 1153 fps, just barely supersonic. This means the projectile at 2000 yards moves about 3.8” for every 1 millisecond of time and range.

At 2000 yards, the flight time for a 338 Lapua at 2900 fps (their best speed) and the flight time is 3.4 seconds. Velocity at 2000 yards for the 270 gr. LRBT J40 round is 1159 fps, also, just barely supersonic. This means the projectile at 2000 yards moves about 4.1” for every 1 millisecond of time and range.

At 2000 yards, the flight time for a 408 CheyTac shooting the 419 gr. at 2900 fps and the flight time is 3.5 seconds. Velocity at 2000 yards for the 419 gr. LRBT J40 round is 1213 fps, also, just barely supersonic, but a little better. This means the projectile at 2000 yards moves about 4.4” for every 1 millisecond of time and range.
 
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Bart B. said:
I find that a ways beyond believable for a Remington factory rifle. While it may well be what its smaller groups are, it's the largest ones that reflect its real accuracy. Small stuff is only "occasional" accuracy.
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Accuracy is accuracy and LR shooting is so much more dependent on user than it is the rifle. Last time i was talking to my gunsmith about F-class he shoots and recalled that the last match he shot someone won with a 700 SPS tactical... as i said shooter dependent.

Tobnpr said:
I don't know enough about the ballistics of the .300 UM to comment. But, I would strongly suspect that keeping a .30 cal bullet supersonic at 2000 yards isn't gonna happen. They're just not large enough to have a BC high enough, to get it done. Simply put, you need BIG projectiles for the high BC's necessary for ultra-long range.
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http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf

Not true, sure it might take a .30-.338Lm to launch the heavies of the .30 cal but it does indeed have heavies. The .30 cal shape BC wise doesn't really hit it's true stride till it reaches 220gr+. Which

.30 Cal
Sierra 240gr SMK G1 BC of .711
Berger 230gr Hybrid G1 BC of .743

.338s
Sierra 300gr SMK G1 BC of .768
Berger 300gr OTM G1 BC of .818

338LM holds the longest record kill on earth, and very commonly reaches 2000yd shots. I wouldn't hesitate to test the theory that a .30-.338 would do just as well. I just don't have the time or the money.
 
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Blackops_2 states:
....LR shooting is so much more dependent on user than it is the rifle.
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Well now, that's news to me. If that's true, then it must be easier for everyone to sight in an rifle with poor accuracy than a tack driver.

Last time i was talking to my gunsmith about F-class he shoots and recalled that the last match he shot someone won with a 700 SPS tactical... as i said shooter dependent.
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That was once. And without knowing what the score was and what that winner was up against, gear and gunners, it's meaningless to me.
 
Well now, that's news to me. If that's true, then it must be easier for everyone to sight in an rifle with poor accuracy than a tack driver.
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He never said it's easier with a bad rifle, he's just saying that the part of the system behind the gun is a whole lot more susceptible to error than the actual gun. I guarantee if you put a bunch of remington 700s on lead sleds and tested their precision with match grade hand loads you would be surprised. I bet 9 out of every 10 of them would be sub MOA.

The problem is that testing the rifle like that should also be done on an indoor range, because doping the wind is also the shooter's responsibility. After removing every variable that isn't within the actual rifle, almost all rifles are "sub MOA" accurate :rolleyes:
 
Our Mk 13 SWS in 300 Winchester uses the 190 grain Match King bullet at 2900fps. I've never chronographed it, but that's what they say.

I've shot it through 1,000 yards and deflection and trajectory seem to be about a third better than the 7.62 Nato (175 grain MK at about 2600 at the muzzle). I've not shot it beyond 1,000 though, so anything else is speculation on my part.

My ballistics program using a G-1 drag factor shows our issue 300 load going subsonic a little past 1300 yards. Now you can hit things after your bullet goes subsonic as many M-14/M-21 users will verify as those systems were routinly shot at 1,000 yards when the issue M 852 load (168 grain MK) was going subsonic somewhere past 800 yards.

Your Ultramag with 220 grain projos should should do much better than our Winchester magnums. It would be interesting to find out.

The range you are interested in would not be impossible, but it might prove to be a challenge, not only from the ammo/weapon/optics standpoint, but probably from atmospheric issues like wind effects and clairity of the air between you and the target.

It would sure be fun to try.
 
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It's going to depend more on the scope and mount than anything else, and shooting it on a calm day. The rifle/ammo combo you have should be up to it.
 
Bart B. said:
Well now, that's news to me. If that's true, then it must be easier for everyone to sight in an rifle with poor accuracy than a tack driver.


That was once. And without knowing what the score was and what that winner was up against, gear and gunners, it's meaningless to me.
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You said that you had a hard time believing a factory remington 700 holding sub-MOA groups at distance. Accuracy is accuracy it doesn't change. You can go buy an Accuracy international AX (7,000$ price tag) if you can't shoot it doesn't make a damn. Thats my point which you apparently didn't get. Most rifles are capable of Sub-MOA accuracy but it's up to the shooter especially at long range to ensure that, not the rifle. Who judges wind, elevation, range, and controls the ES and SD of the load? You do... hence it's not near as rifle dependent as one would think.

I don't understand why you seem to believe that a factory remington can't perform well at distance..
 
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5-shot groups.

I've done 5-shots under 5" center-to-center in FCSA competition.
I've done 5-shots under 10" at a mile - 1760 yards.
I've done 5-shots under 24" at 1.5 miles.
I use a AR-50 in 50BMG using 800 grain brass borerider solids at 2845 fps 15 feet from muzzle.

FCSA Competition was with 12mph wind from over left shoulder.
Other were at range with trees on both sides with no wind conditions, and cool day with no visible mirage except off barrel.

Use a slow powder that accelerates bullet using entire barrel length.
Brass prep is MAJOR.
Present bullet to barrel bore exactly on centerline using borerider technology.

Good Luck !!!
 
^^ X2^^

I meant to comment on that, earlier, as I had no idea what that comment, meant...

I find it interesting to hear comments to the effect of "it can't be a sub-moa rifle at 1000" when it shoots under an inch at 100...

As you state, bullet trajectory is linear, it's external influences that affect flight.

The greater the distance, the more the skill the shot requires. Nuttin' but common sense there. Elevation is straightforward thanks to our fancy ballistic programs on our Droids and IPhones...wind, that's a different matter. I don't have a damn clue yet how to nail windage when I see four different flags on the way to the target blowing in four different directions, and indicating different speeds...this is solved by nothing other than time behind the trigger under those kinds of conditions. You can have a one-hole rifle at 100 yards, but that's not going to help you when the wind is near full value and gusting...if you don't have the experience.

That's what he meant by saying it's more the shooter, than the rifle, at long range and he's spot on.
 
Its funny how these threads tend to morph. I guess thats part of it. Somebody asked if I'd ever even looked through a scope at 1000 yards or even 600. Why yes I have... last weekend and this weekend too if it doesnt rain. Lets just say I have access. Soon to be 1500 yard world class access. Which is where this whole thread really started. If I can hopefully bang steel soon at 1500 yards why not try 1760. BTW not sure where 2000 yards came from. I'm just wanting to try something challenging and fun. Why so serious BART B. Relax and don't take yourself so seriously. Ask anyone who owns a sendero ... its a shooter. Thanks and have a nice day.
 
I was using 2000yds as an example for the .30-.338 and .338LM, pretty much saying given the speed both are adequate out to a mile. Hell i've seen 7WSM out to 2000yds with a 180gr berger VLD. Thats all i was pointing out, that and that it's more a shooter dependent application that the rifle.

Given your running the ultra mag try some 220gr SMKs or 230gr Hybrids and see what you can run them at 2700fps ought to get you to 1760yds environmentals willing that is. In my conditions around here JBM has it dropping under 1000fps at 1700. But given the fact DA could be very different at your location it could make it easier. That being said people make hits on targets when the bullet is sub sonic it's just much much harder to predict.

3590olj.jpg
 
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Some day when I morph from a pistol shooter to a rifleman I will shoot at a mile. Until then all of my rifles shoot better than I do.

As my old country philospher said. "Most headspace problems do not involve the rifle or the ammo."
 
Another thing i didn't mention is as hagar said it's going to require extensive elevation to reach that far. Depending on the optic you might have to hold quite a bit using the reticle.

Also i have some pictures of acres of farm land that stretches over a mile. Nothing setup properly but if you want to shoot a mile, you can ;)
 
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