Call goes out for REPEAL of 2nd Amendment

Dennis Olson

New member
Move it or LOSE it people....

A quote from USA Today:

"Stymied on Capitol Hill, a grass-roots movement to pressure Congress is gaining momentum. Organizers of a "Million Mom March" hope to send that many women to Washington next Mother's Day to lobby for handgun registration and more zealous background checks for weapons purchases. But if these crusaders want to move beyond feel-good nostrums, they should wave banners that declare, "Repeal the Second Amendment." What? You can't mess with the Bill of Rights. Weren't the first 10 amendments to our sacred Constitution handed down by the Founding Fathers from Mount Sinai?

Let's face facts. America will continue to have its own versions of the killing fields as long as there are millions of handguns floating around waiting for another psychopath with a grudge."

The link:

http://www.usatoday.com/elect/ew/ew355.htm

Dennis

How much time do you think we have left to turn it around PEACEFULLY? Not very much IMO...
 
Letter to the editor of USA Today in reply to Mr. Shapiro's column.

Dear Sir:
If one reads the history of the 2nd Amendment as well as the rest of the Bill of Rights a different picture emerges from the one painted by you. The Bill of Rights was thought by many of the Founders to be redundant for who would ever challenge these liberties in America. Also it is clear that the Bill of Rights is an enumeration of basic human rights not a granting of those rights. Basic human rights cannot be taken away legitimately by the vote of individuals, state legislatures, or of Congress. Having the power to do something does not equal legitimacy. My right to own firearms derives from the basic human right of self defense which is in turn derived from the right to life. To reiterate, the Bill of Rights is an enumeration of rights, a list of rights, not a grant of rights. Another point from Aesop's fables: "The mice voted to bell the cat."

Perhaps you should back efforts to identify and control psychopaths and leave the vast majority of responsible gun owners alone.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedoms. It is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt

Under which category, Mr. Shapiro, do you reside?

Sincerely,

Byron Quick
 
Here's what I sent:

"I was simply shocked to read that your columnist, Mr. Shapiro, has decided two frightening things:

1. The fact that I am allowed to own a gun is what has caused various violent psychotics to kill people with guns. This ignores some important facts. For instance, if gun ownership causes crime, how does Mr. Shapiro explain the fact that Switzerland and Israel, each of which far surpasses the U.S. in per capita gun ownership, come in far below the U.S. in rates of overall crime and murder? How about the fact that Japan and Canada, long touted for strict gun control and low crime, actually have lower total murder rates than the rate of murder WITHOUT the use of a gun in the U.S.? What kind of fool would believe that taking away one tool of a criminal would stop crime. If this were possible, the first burglar alarms would have stopped burglary and the first bank vault would have stopped all attempts at bank robbery.

2. Mr. Shapiro and others like him somehow have the right to legislate away my rights. Firstly, the 2nd Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights and as such was never meant to be subject to repeal--its inclusion was one of the conditions of ratification in many states. Secondly, the right to keep and bear arms is not GRANTED by the Constitution, it is only enumerated so that everyone would be clear on which rights are understood to be universal to all U.S. citizens. Any vote to repeal it is as void as a vote to repeal the right to free speech and will be widely disobeyed.

If Mr. Shapiro wishes to live under a government which possesses his rights in order to dole them out as it pleases, he has many options. However, I refuse to allow that to happen to my nation.

Don M. Gwinn
dgwinn@monm.edu"
 
Before we start talking real big, like we always do once our Rights are all but lost, remember that we couldn't put together enough support to run a single full page ad in USA TODAY!

HCI DID!

And if we lose our Rights - that will be why.

All the individual letters and e-mails, however valiant and well meaning, hold no real power in the shaping of public opinion. Only large, organized, and sustained effort does that. Remember the pictures of that brave and valiant soul standing in front of the tank in Tiennanmen Square - his image is famous around the world - he didn't accomplish squat!

I'm sorry to say that we gunowners, as a group, barely get along with each other - much less provide a united front against which our enemies could never prevail. I keep hearing the question "What would you do if they took away...?" They have already taken more that they had the right to! What did you do about that?

Mikey
 
I am too!!
Do you really believe that we/you can REASON
with these people? Does it do any good other than to make you feel better?

About the one page ad that we didnt do... What do you seriously think it would have accomplished? What would it have changed?

Legally the Second Amendment doesnt grant us the RKBA, so repealing it wouldnt take the right away. But as my friend R.F.Hill jr says "Perception isnt everything, but it's all they need."

We do indeed live in interesting times

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
I'm not worried...

They can pump themselves up about repealing the 2nd...however,

1) its never been established that its Constitutionally legal to repeal any of the first 10 A's. Why? Because they were included in order for ratification. Simple contractual law....negate those provisions and the contract is null and void. The contract hence being void negates the process and it has no legal standing and authority. As Spartacus noted, the 10 A's do not grant...they acknowledge...thus they can not be repealed as they are not subordinate.
2) With such a legal quagmire with no historical precident, a decision can not be reached in a "timely fashion"...it would take years and years to reach the conclusion that it may even be possible
3) It would set forth a Constitutional crisis....Congress couldn't do it....it requires a Constitutional convention.....think of the absolute chaos and divisiveness. Civil unrest and disorder. Will you keep your mouths shut? Didn't think so.

Like I said...I'm not worried...its pure rhetoric

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
I just re-read my post and it sounded a lot more negative than I meant it to be. I'm just getting over one of the most physically painful experiences of my life and the pain killer the doc prescribed ain't gettin' it! I guess I'm lashing out.

You guys and gals are the ones I can count on when the SHTF. You're welcome in my camp, good times or bad.

I do, however, hear a lot of that "I'll do this or I'll do that or they won't do that to me without a fight!", and I read crap from hunters saying they couldn't care less if those damn "assault rifles" are banned. Pistol shooters somehow aren't perceived as sportsmen and skeet shooters are some of the snottiest gun owners I've ever met (not all of them). Somehow we have to pull this diverse group together!

Call me foolish, Ed, but I truely believed that a one page ad would have gotten some media attention and would have shown solidarity among gun owners independent of the NRA, GOA or other fine groups. As it stands, only HCI has that kind of claim because they ran theirs.

To come out on top will require some form of sacrifice and while many of us are willing, many more just say they are. The time to begin is past but it's never too late - or so they say...

Mikey
 
I gotta agree. I don't think that it does matter how many letters we write or how many phone calls we make. First, no matter what we do, the media will, if it reports it all, demonize us. How many times do guns save lives? How many times is it reported in the media? The impression most people get is that only psychos get or use guns.
How does the media portray us? I told a friend that I haven't seen in a while that I had just bought a new gun. You should have seen the look I got from her. I'll bet you all know it and have gotten it.
Second it's not in the interests of politicians to side with a politically unpopular issue. In the wake of columbine, LA, and now Ft. Worth, who's gonna have the guts to stand up and say that a gun isn't good or bad, it's just there. It's a tool and nothing else. The intent doesn't come from the gun, it's the user. But I'm preaching to the choir here.
I just read an article on Yahoo!, in which Clinton basically said that the NRA has to take responsibility for gun violence. If this wasn't bad enough he had the nerve to add as examples The World Trade Center Bombings and The Destruction of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Talk about nerve. I was so upset after reading that I had to rant a little, sorry if it didn't make sense. Here's the link to the article if you want to read it: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19990919/ts/clinton_guns_1.html
 
I was thinking we should write Mr.Shapiro and congratulate him on his realization that the the 2nd applies to individuals, and for broadcasting that message to the masses for us.

DC is correct on why the 2nd will not be repealed, and I don't imagine the most fervent anti will be too happy to admit the 2nd enumerates an individual right. It would mean they have been lying, or misinformed, for the last 65 years.

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"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
Near the same title, totally different slant. I agree with DC, I don't think it would go anywhere.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bock/19990917_xcabo_make_them_.shtml

Make them repeal the 2nd Amendment

Predictably enough the shooting spree committed by Larry Gene Ashbrook in a Baptist church in Fort Worth, Texas, has precipitated almost immediate kneejerk reactions -- beginning with Janet Reno -- in favor of more gun control. Although it is difficult to see on what legitimate grounds Ashbrook could have been denied gun ownership -- unless we're ready to do so on the basis of a 20-year-old arrest for simple marijuana possession and a reputation as being a bit eccentric -- the hue and cry has begun and will be amplified.

In response we will surely see dozens of articles, columns and speeches making the kind of point I made above -- that any gun control law that could be passed now (I make no guarantees about the near future) could not conceivably have prevented Larry Ashbrook's murderous act. This may be an intellectually compelling argument, but politically it is at best a rear-guard action and at worst a consistent loser. The movement for stricter gun control has never thrived on intellectually cohesive arguments, but on emotional responses to tragic and outrageous acts of violence, feeding the natural human desire to want to "do something'' even when one harbors doubts that the something in question will really help.

It's time to shift the terms of the debate. Advocates of the freedom to own firearms had started to do so by concentrating on passing "concealed carry'' laws, buttressed by academics like John Lott, whose studies have demonstrated rather conclusively that an armed society is not only a polite society but ultimately a safer society. But much of that momentum has been reversed by the opportunistic response of gun control advocates to school shootings and other tragedies.

One of the best ways to accomplish this might be to restore the Second Amendment to public debate -- not in the sense of using it as a mantra but by reminding gun control advocates that the Second Amendment, for better or worse, stands in the way of their plans and has to be dealt with. Here's one way such an approach might work.

"I'm sympathetic to your desire to do something about gun violence,'' we might tell control advocates, "and I'll be happy to discuss the pros and cons of various kinds of gun control. But before we get to that, you really need to repeal the Second Amendment. Like the rest of the Bill of Rights, it is rather unambiguous. 'The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' doesn't leave much room for the kind of control that might have some hope of being successful at reducing gun violence. Sure, you can quibble about what 'infringed' means as we enter a new millennium. But you can't do all that much and hope to maintain much semblance of a constitutional government.

"Lots of people favor censorship, including political censorship. But while some restrictions on freedom of speech have been imposed (too many in my opinion), the First Amendment has prevented the establishment of any regime of thoroughgoing censorship. Censorship advocates had some success but have been effectively stymied from establishing real censorship.

"If you think that's a good outcome, you need to understand that the Second Amendment is part of the document that preserves freedom of speech, freedom of association, the right of a trial by jury and a number of other clearly desirable policies. If you simply pass laws that ignore the amendment by passing laws as if it didn't exist, you undermine the authority of the First Amendment and other parts of the Constitution.

"Now you might have a point that if the Founders had any idea what kind of destructive weapons human ingenuity would develop by the turn of the millennium they wouldn't have included the Second Amendment. But to institute the kinds of controls you have in mind, you need to start by making the argument that the amendment is an anachronism and needs to be repealed. There are precedents. We repealed prohibition. We passed amendments that outlawed slavery, an institution the original constitution implicitly recognized.

"Once the Second Amendment is repealed, we'll be happy to discuss the pros and cons of various gun control proposals without what amounts to a constitutional prohibition hanging over us and tainting the debate. Opponents of gun control will not longer be able to fall back on the intellectually lazy expedient of citing the Second Amendment and declaring the argument over. They'll have to meet your arguments for control on the level playing field of honest debate.

"We acknowledge that changing the constitution is a difficult procedure and purposely so. But if, as so many polls seem to show, the people want more gun control, it shouldn't be that difficult to persuade them that the first step is to get rid of the amendment that is such an emotional impediment to the policies you think are so sensible as to be almost self-evident. If you don't take that step first, the freedoms and protections afforded by the other parts of the Bill of Rights will ultimately be threatened and the Constitution will be a dead letter.''

In Congress, people who question the idea of gun control as an effective form of crime control could take a similar tack. "Gun control? Sure, we'll talk about it. But not until you repeal the Second Amendment. If it's as anachronistic and unpopular as you say, it shouldn't be much of a problem. And it will open up the field for the kind of comprehensive control you really want.''

This argument is similar to the position a number of liberals who really dislike guns and favor gun control, such as Alan Dershowitz and Laurence Tribe of Harvard, have reluctantly come to. Yes, comprehensive gun control would be a desirable policy, they believe, but so long as the Second Amendment is in place we can't have it, just as we can't have a British-style parliamentary system or presidents elected for six-year terms. If we impose it in spite of the Constitution, we undermine a constitution that, while imperfect, on balance has a lot of desirable features.

Some liberals believe already that repealing the Second Amendment is a good idea, and a few have said so in public. Reminding them -- every time the subject comes up -- just how large an impediment the amendment is, in law and in justice, to their desires for a gun-free society, might embarrass them into a campaign to repeal the amendment openly rather than by stealth.

There are risks in such an approach. Supreme Court decisions on the Second Amendment are much fewer than decisions on freedom of speech and expression, and the direction is nowhere near as clear. I'm not sure just how the court might rule if presented with an unambiguous violation of the Second Amendment and neither are most people -- which is probably one reason gun freedom advocates aren't that eager to bring such a case. And it might turn out that the people (or a large enough majority of them), if presented with persuasive arguments on behalf of repealing the Second Amendment, might shrug their shoulders and say, "OK, if that's what it takes to get the kind of gun control we need to live in safety, let's do it.''

I don't think so. I think if most of the people were presented with a sustained campaign on behalf of repealing the Second Amendment they would ultimately reject it. But I could be wrong.

Regardless of where public sentiment lies on the issue, however, there's little doubt that most proposed gun control statutes constitute a clear violation of the Second Amendment. We should rub the noses of control advocates in that fact again and again, untiringly, and invite them to do it the honest way, the way that has a chance of preserving rather than undermining a constitutional order that almost every American but a few real radicals believes has on balance been beneficial to the country.

Alan Bock is senior editorial writer and columnist at the Orange County Register, Senior Contributing Editor at the National Educator, a contributing editor at Liberty magazine and author of "Ambush at Ruby Ridge."

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“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed—and thus clamorous to be led to safety—by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”—H.L. Mencken
 
On my ride to and fro from work I pass the cemetery of the Bethany Methodist Church in the hamlet of Girard, Georgia. I stopped there this morning. Buried in that graveyard are many of my ancestors. Jordan Heath, whose tombstone is inscribed with these words-South Carolina Militia, wounded in the Siege of Charleston. He turned seventeen during that siege. He is my several times great grandfather. Or Theus DeLaigle who died in Vietnam on February 28, 1968 a few days after his 21st birthday. My cousin. Right down the road a couple of miles Cameron Quick lies in peace under some magnolia trees. My great great grandfather. His tombstone reads 32nd Georgia Infantry, CSA. Ten miles west is the tombstone of another great great grandfather, George Edward Skinner. His tombstone reads 5th Georgia Cavalry, CSA. A few feet away is my great uncle Carrol Skinner, USMC, WWII. I have a haunting scene in my mind at times-the day of my death when I meet these men. What haunts me is the possibility of having to say,"I didn't fail. I didn't try. I chose slavery and life rather liberty or death." I don't think I could bear that.

I will not comply with a possible repeal of the Second Amendment for I do not regard my right to bear arms as being dependent on the Second Amendment. However, I will regard such repeal as sundering all ties between me and the governments that act in that repeal.

And then the aftermath: "Who bells the cat?"

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Byron Quick



[This message has been edited by Spartacus (edited September 19, 1999).]
 
Byron, I agree that we have an obligation--but the obligation is to do what will best work, right?
I'm not sold on this thing by any means--the phrase "careful what you ask for" keeps popping up in my mind. But OTOH these people are essentially working toward a sneaky, backdoor undermining of the 2nd Amendment right now, so maybe forcing them to attack it openly makes sense. I'm going to give it some more thought and I encourage you to do the same before you decide.
 
I think that if we force a debate on whether to repeal the 2nd amendment, we admit that that might be a legitimate goal. It isn't. Let's not even broach the subject. But they will, so we need to be able to counter their arguments in favor of repealing the 2nd before it ever gets that far.
 
Do you want to garner media attention, seize the spotlight, win more votes. Then do what every other organization does to get attention. Be a little radical. Put an openly gay, CCL holding, democrat woman in charge of the NRA. Bet we see the tide change. Somebody find us one, well versed, and not scared to face down a verbal assualt.



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Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve Moody


Just once wouldn't it be nice to hear a politician say,"I don't believe this way, but the people do."
 
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