C & R licensee question: Case of rifle

[Dabull]

Just filled out my renewal form. It asks (Section C, Item 7a & b): How many firearms have you bought or acquired with your firearms license over the past 3 years? How many firearms have you sold or disposed of with your firearms license over the past 3 years?

My guess is if you write 20 and 19 in these boxes, you will be one of the few C&R holders who is visited by a BATFE inspector. He will not be cheerful, open-minded, while making a random, courtesy visit. He will be investigating your apparent abuse of a C&R license. The people you transferred the 19 rifles to will be questioned to verify your statements. If 19 people say you sold them a rifle and made money on the deal you are sunk. Lying to a federal agent is very, very bad.

 

[omahahaha]

the important ? here is how much are these crates?

 

[rburch]

What you do with the profit is immaterial. If you are buying and selling guns for profit..........you need an 01FFL (dealer).

Ok now I'm really confused. From the FAQ, it seems like what you do with the profit, or your motive for selling, has everything to do with the legality.

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

So according to the FAQ you can sell and even make a profit as long as you are doing so with the purpose of adding to your collection.

So going back to the OP, if i were to buy 10 mosins, and spend a month or so cleaning them up and testing them to find the very best out of the lot.

So I have the one mosin I really wanted, and decide to sell off the others, to buy a few Mausers, M1's, 1903's, etc. So Sold 9 guns, bought say 14.

or a slightly different situation

find a beat up old milsurp in really rough shape, and pick it up for next to nothing. Take the time to clean it up, and replace to worn parts, and then refinish it. It now looks almost new. You shoot it for a bit, but get bored, so you sell it for a decent profit and buy a few more beaters.

You do this for a few years you could easily get the same bought 14, sold 9 numbers the first situation lists.

I don't want to get in trouble or

abuse your license and cause the BATF to tighten the rules, or eliminate the license for everybody else!

But I'm honestly confused as all heck as to what is and isn't acceptable, with this aspect and a bunch of related issues. But to avoid threadjacking this any further, I'll start a new thread to ask my other questions.

 

[Don P]

Having a C&R I'd like to put my 2 schillings worth in. Buying and selling goods is a business or doing business. Having a yard sale you are doing business. It makes me wonder why folks lay out the $30 bucks and then want to try to circumvent the ATF regulations to suit there needs and wants. As the OP stated

Can a C&R Licensee purchase a case of 20 Mosin rifles keep the ones he wishes as sell the rest?

To the folks disputing the fact and looking for the loop hole, he has stated keep the ones he wants and SELL THE REST. Does this not represent a business deal????? BUY SELL??????

 

[SwampYankee]

find a beat up old milsurp in really rough shape, and pick it up for next to nothing. Take the time to clean it up, and replace to worn parts, and then refinish it. It now looks almost new. You shoot it for a bit, but get bored, so you sell it for a decent profit and buy a few more beaters.

This is perfectly acceptable. Some people will say there is a time limit that you must hold onto the gun for but I've never seen any such thing in BATFE writing.

I just renewed my license renewal form and wrote "15" purchases and "5" sales. No one showed up at my door. I suspect if I wrote "19" purchases and "19" sales no one would still show up at my door. They might, but I could always tell them I decided to liquidate my collection. And there is nothing wrong with doing that.

The thing about buying a case of guns and selling the rest is a bit of a gray area, IMHO. Chances of the BATFE ever finding out or deciding you were trying to be a dealer are slim. If I were interested in Mosin's and had the cash to buy a crate, I might. But I don't have either. But you need to make your own decisions as to what you are going to do, I'm no lawyer.

The real problem with the BATFE is that you get a lot of opinions from different agents and there is a tremendous amount of discretion in how they enforce what. I guess it is just like any policing agency.

Personally, I would like to hear of a C&R holder that EVER got an audit from the BATFE...

 

[jtb1967]

Quote:
find a beat up old milsurp in really rough shape, and pick it up for next to nothing. Take the time to clean it up, and replace to worn parts, and then refinish it. It now looks almost new. You shoot it for a bit, but get bored, so you sell it for a decent profit and buy a few more beaters.
This is perfectly acceptable. Some people will say there is a time limit that you must hold onto the gun for but I've never seen any such thing in BATFE writing.

I just renewed my license renewal form and wrote "15" purchases and "5" sales. No one showed up at my door. I suspect if I wrote "19" purchases and "19" sales no one would still show up at my door. They might, but I could always tell them I decided to liquidate my collection. And there is nothing wrong with doing that.

The thing about buying a case of guns and selling the rest is a bit of a gray area, IMHO. Chances of the BATFE ever finding out or deciding you were trying to be a dealer are slim. If I were interested in Mosin's and had the cash to buy a crate, I might. But I don't have either. But you need to make your own decisions as to what you are going to do, I'm no lawyer.

The real problem with the BATFE is that you get a lot of opinions from different agents and there is a tremendous amount of discretion in how they enforce what. I guess it is just like any policing agency.

Personally, I would like to hear of a C&R holder that EVER got an audit from the BATFE...

Very true. I know C&R holders that set up and sell on a regular basis at gunshows. Although it's wrong, I'm know several of them are ordering firearms for the sole purpose of turning a buck. They'll probably never get caught, but then they could end up in trouble if they ever are.