C & R licensee question: Case of rifle

M

M4Sherman

New member
Okay this is quick legality question. Can a C&R Licensee purchase a case of 20 Mosin rifles keep the ones he wishes as sell the rest?

The reason I ask is there are a few of us who are wanting to order a crate (20) of Mosin Nagants and one of the people in the group is a C&R holder.
 
The 03FFL is a license for a Collector of Curios & Relics. It is for the purpose of enhancing your collection.......not the collections of others. You cannot use your C&R license to acquire firearms for others.....period.

Purchasing firearms with the intent to sell is "engaging in the business" and requires a dealers license (01FFL).

While the holder of that C&R may not be visited by the ATF for years (if ever), the dealer he bought those rifles from will get a compliance visit. When the ATF sees large volume purchases going to one person.....they will follow the trail. And the holder of that C&R license will have some explaining to do.
 
The only way I could see a scenario like that working, would be if you bought the 20 rifles, and kept them on hand for enough of a period of time that it shows you were not dealing. Say, kept them for a year or two, and then bartered them off one by one, every so often(you can dispose of YOUR collection in any way you want). But, since that license is for YOUR collection, you may wanna show that any proceeds were devoted to your own collection, as in traded for something else that you wanted, or sold to raise money for something you wanted. I surely wouldn't buy them next week and have most of them logged out of your bound book by next month. I believe that would be a red flag. This is only my thoughts, I'm not educated in legalese.
sixgun

I do know someone who bought 10 sks rifles some years ago and kept them unopened for a few years, and started selling them off about 2 years ago when the prices went thru the roof. He wasn't dealing, but he made quite a profit to put towards other guns he wanted. He bought them specifically as barter material in the future.
 
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emcon5 ....selling them at cost it would be hard to argue you are "engaging in business"
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Really?
Float that concept by the ATF and see how fast it sinks.

ATF will examine the licensees aquisitions and dispositions.......whether you made a profit or suffered a loss is not their concern and is not information that they will review in a compliance inspection.

Dumb= buying forty rifles intending to keep a couple.
Dumber= posting your story on the internet.
 
ALL of you could apply for and get C&R's
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This is probably the best idea for the OP. For $30 and a month or however long wait, it's not worth the results of getting caught doing something illegal.
I've had my C&R for a long time and if I have to question whether or not something I wanna do is legal or not, I'll pass on the safe side. Just don't wanna take the chance.
sixgun
 
I bought a lot of 10 sks a number of years ago, the purpose was to hand select the one or two I wanted, the rest were used as barter material. reselling a rifle does not constitute engaging in commerce. There is no stipulation on how long a rifle is kept in your posession to qualify as "collected". Where the op is making a mistake is involving others in his purchase.
 
Well I dont have the cash to buy 20 rifles but I do have the income for five-ten and add to the fact that many of my friends would like to get a few rifles it would be cheaper to get a create.
 
in the case of the mosin, it is cheaper to go to a shop that has done the bulk buying already. bring a copy of your c&r to transfer to, and avoid the call in.
 
Really?
Float that concept by the ATF and see how fast it sinks.
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By the definition on the ATF FAQ, A one time purchase of a case of rifles to enhance your collection, then disposing of those that do not meet the standards of your collection seems like it would be OK.

Seems like they do consider profit an aspect of "engaged in business"
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#business-definition (emphasis added)
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
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emcon5,
I hope you understand that those "FAQ's" are rife with errors, do not fully cover every possible situation and do not carry the weight of law.

Unlicensed persons HAVE been charged & convicted for dealing without a license based on the purchase and sale of ONE firearm.

Instead of buying one case.....what if you bought twenty cases? And you still kept one or two rifles. Would that still seem like you aren't engaging in the business? Again, float that by your local ATF office.

You want your interpretation of the FAQ answer to make volume purchases okay...but you aren't the ATF and you aren't an 01FFL...and if you get caught you will spend far more $$$$ defending yourself than the few dollars you saved by buying a case lot. There is an old saying: "you might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride". And when jousting with the ATF you don't want any part of that ride.

If you think you can get away with buying rifles by the case and selling off all but one or two.......knock yourself out. You'll likely not get caught UNLESS your seller has a curious IOI during a compliance inspection. Or an ATF IOI or agent reads this and gets curious. Or a local gunstore owner turns you in. Or one of you buddies starts bragging about the great deal he got on a $100 rifle. There are a thousand ways to pique the interest of the ATF....having your name fill up a couple of pages in your sellers bound book is not easily missed.
 
I would think that the "straw purchase" would have been the angle the ATF would use to arrest you. You (or the C&R holder) is buying a gun for other people. Big no-no. If $$ changed hands before the guns were delivered, that would seem to be a "gotcha" that would getcha.
 
A second litmus test, and the word of the law, is your intent. If you buy a case to keep, and later decide some don't meet your collector goals and sell them, for a profit or not, that's ok with the law. Proving intent is about circumstantial evidence so if you get audited they are going to look at how long you held them, whether or not you made a profit, and whether doing this is a habit. The more ticks in the wrong box and more likely you're going to be in trouble. I'd tread lightly here.
 
I'm a bit confused as how the laws work on this since I just got my C&R last week.

It says you can sell to enhance your collection, so what would be the reaction to this.

Say I buy a case of 20 Mosins, clean them up, pick the best of the lot and keep it.

I then turn around and sell the remaining 19 guns for a profit, say $15-$20 a gun.

I take the money from the sales of the Mosins to purchase a rarer C&R gun I've been wanting.

I believe that fits the enhancing your collection rules, but I'm not sure it would fit in the minds of the ATF.
 
I'm tired of hearing all these scenarios of ways to abuse a Class 03 C&R License!
If you want to deal in firearms, get a Class 01 dealers license
If you want to be able to buy C&R firearms direct from distributors for yourself, to shoot and collect, get a Class 03 Collector of Curio and Relics license.
Don't abuse your license and cause the BATF to tighten the rules, or eliminate the license for everybody else!
 
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