Buy/Sell/Trade Receipt To Cover Your butt

I don't ask for a bill of sale but I will and have signed them.

I check the DL and if I feel a vibe like when someone is a first time gun owner I will remember their name from the DL and write down some info after they leave.

If questioned by the police I will deal with it by contacting my lawyer and forwarding him any info I can remember and if I can't remember anything then I guess the detective will have to do some work.
 
A bill of sale is equal to the value of the paper it is printed on.
While it may give you warm fuzzy feelings it is worthless as proof that the gun was obtained legally or that anyone involved in the transaction was a saint.

I find it hysterically funny that the same forum members who rant about intrusive Federal regulations, gun laws and ATF regulations have no trouble inventing their own personal regulations......and then try to justify this by citing imagined situations where the police would demand proof of purchase.

I'm a licensed gun dealer, I'm required to keep records. Enjoy the right you currently have to NOT keep records.
 
dogtown tom said:
I find it hysterically funny that the same forum members who rant about intrusive Federal regulations, gun laws and ATF regulations have no trouble inventing their own personal regulations......and then try to justify this by citing imagined situations where the police would demand proof of purchase.
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My sentiments exactly.
 
Samefly, great form, great idea. Required or not in your state, it’s a good idea. It’s required by law here in Illinois. I use something similar but with the addition of a space for the seller and buyers Illinois FOID numbers.

Yes it’s CYA. If someone buys a gun from you that you bought new from an FFL and the gun was used in a murder, and found, who are law enforcement going to come looking for? YOU! With that form, you show it to LE and you are cleared.
 
Just a couple of thoughts here...

If the local cops (and I know sonething of this process) come see you about a gun, which they believe you own(ed) and has been used in a crime, they are not likely to demand 'proof' of purchase, subsequent sale, etc. They will more likely be simply trying to run down how the gun got from point A to B. I've done this a number of times from the original point of sale to the crime scene. I have yet to request criminal charges on anybody who previously-owned the gun.

Without too much imagination, you can envision a scenario where an agent of the government, or third party thereto, tries to sell you an 'illegal' gun or tries to get you to sell a legal gun to them- 'no questions asked' of course. If you say 'Sorry pal, I gotta see some ID before we go a step further...' you just might avoid making payments on somebody's BMW.

Keeping good records of where your guns went cannot hurt you, other than to cost you a potential sale. It might help you in the event you run across somebody with a badge, who doesn't view 2A issues the same way I do.

Y'all do whatever you want... no skin off my nose either way.
 
Sarge said:
Without too much imagination, you can envision a scenario where an agent of the government, or third oparty thereof, tries to sell you an 'illegal' gun or tries to get you to sell one to them- 'no questions asked' of course. If you say 'Sorry pal, I gotta see some ID before we go a step further...' you just might avoid making payments on somebody's BMW.
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How could not asking for ID cause you any problems when there is CLEARLY no legal requirement for such a thing?

In almost all states, long guns can be bought and sold between individuals with no more requirements than selling bubble gum or horse manure.

Asking for ID, getting signatures or filling out forms is absolutely not required.

Actually, it would make me a little suspicious. I would wonder why this individual wants all this documentation and might suspect that they ARE a badge and are trying to set me up in some kind of sting. Even knowing that I'm doing nothing wrong it would make me nervous.

Anyway, it would take a LOT of imagination for me to come up with a scenario where I would be selling an illegal gun to anyone, since I don't own any illegal guns. I would also not be illegally selling a gun because a simple question of "Are you legally allowed to own firearms?" instantly meets all legal requirements for the sale. If the answer is anything other than "Yes." or there is any hesitation, the sale is OFF. Capital O-F-F. There's no way I would illegally sell a gun. Simply impossible.

Handguns in NY must be listed on the purchasers permit before they can take possession, so any further documentation in those cases would just be silly.
 
Peet,

Check my post. I caught the 'or sell one to them' error and editited it asap.

You can legally sell buuble gum and horse manure to felons. You cannot legally sell them a firearm, regardless of the state.

Legal requirements were never a part of the opening post, nor did I mention them. They popped up during the discussion. CYA was and I offered my take, as requested.

As I mentioned earlier, everybody can do whatever they want.
 
Sarge said:
You can legally sell buuble gum and horse manure to felons. You cannot legally sell them a firearm, regardless of the state.
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I have no burden to prove that the person buying my guns is not a felon. Only that I have "no reason to believe" that they are a prohibited person. Therefore, if I have an add in the paper to sell horse manure and a gun, my requirements for the sale of either of them do not include making certain that the buyer is not a felon.

Additionally, having that piece of paper adds nothing to my knowledge of whether or not the person is in fact a felon.

Worse, that piece of paper tells me nothing, in fact. I am dependent on the other person being honest. Fake IDs are easy. Fake CHLs would be no more difficult that a fake driver's license for a determined person.

Dogtown Tom's opinion is spot-on. Requiring paperwork which is not required by law while we so often decry the ATF restrictions and requirements is antithetical to our cause.
 
Oh, so now it's 'anti-ethical'. Believe that does it for me. I cede the floor to the ethics police, LOL.
 
A bill of sale is equal to the value of the paper it is printed on.
While it may give you warm fuzzy feelings it is worthless as proof that the gun was obtained legally or that anyone involved in the transaction was a saint.

I find it hysterically funny that the same forum members who rant about intrusive Federal regulations, gun laws and ATF regulations have no trouble inventing their own personal regulations......and then try to justify this by citing imagined situations where the police would demand proof of purchase.

I'm a licensed gun dealer, I'm required to keep records. Enjoy the right you currently have to NOT keep records.
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^ This.

But its everyone's choice to keep records or not. Keeping a paper trail is great, but In the past I've seen no use for it (as my state does not have firearm reg and i'm not required to do so). If you're state does, then go for it.

There are so many cracks in the system that a paper trail/receipt is unnecessary IMO. Even with an actual paper trail, things can still get messed up somehow. I have a few personal examples, not involving guns but its just the same.

1. I bought a car from a dealer that was stolen 3months later. Come to find out the dealer/tag agency didnt even do their job of switching the title to my name so when the car was recovered by police it was still in the previous owner's name. A lot of good all that paperwork did me eh? [sarcasm]

2. A different example is when my brother was mistaken for a person on the FBI's most wanted list. Someone apparently thought he was a wanted felon and the cops followed my brother home. His ID and everything checked out and the LEO's laughed it off. In comparison, if a gun I sold w/o paperwork came back to me, I'd just say I sold it a while back and thats that.

CYA if you prefer, but really I found it pointless. On the plus side of that, keeping records makes everything easier to track down. But really, i found it not to be a big deal. Bad guys will find a way to buy guns in the black market one way or another.
 
I respect anyone's right to walk away if asked to see ID Respect my right to do the same for not showing me ID. Asking to see ID is bare minimum to me. It at the very least shows me you are of legal age and a legal resident of the state (which is required where I live). Whether you want to keep a receipt or not fine... I just posted this to help those that are interested in doing so. Not to have a few of you start fighting over buddha vs darwin. True having a bill of sales doesn't prevent the worst from happening but nothing in life does... having a bill of sales does have aspects that can benefit both parties (unless one of the parties is planning to do something stupid).

Pros:
+ You can show you at least did the minimum required to make a legal transaction (depending on where you live)
+ You can keep ownership records
+ Stay organized if you've bought and sold multiple firearms
+ Insurance claims
+ If the gun is stolen from you you now have a record of the serial # and etc

Cons
- The former owner knows you bought a gun from them... wait they already know that don't they?

for those that are so paranoid about the government tracking them understand that you're already being tracked: you're posting on an open public online forum, mostly likely from a home or work pc which has both an ISP and IP address that leads to you... you have a web history, you probably have a banking history, credit history, employment history, tax history, membership history, etc etc etc they're probably looking into you already just for being interested in firearms

PS
whenever I post in the BST section I'll make sure to mention I need to see ID and need a bill of sales for FTF transactions to avoid any misunderstandings

PPS
rant rant rant blah blah blah
 
I also have a form for record keeping.
http://www.nashwauk.net/FirearmTransfer.html
Minnesota has more restrictive transferee rules than some States it appears.
624.7132 REPORT OF TRANSFER.
[Subd. 14.Transfer to unknown party.

(a) No person shall transfer a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to another who is not personally known to the transferor unless the proposed transferee presents evidence of identity to the transferor.

(b) No person who is not personally known to the transferor shall become a transferee of a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon unless the person presents evidence of identity to the transferor.

(c) The evidence of identity shall contain the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the proposed transferee; must be made or issued by or under the authority of the United States government, a state, a political subdivision of a state, a foreign government, a political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi-governmental organization; and must be of a type commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.]
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I concede to others that it may not be worth any more than the paper its written on, but oh, well I will have it anyway just in case. ;)
 
Sold a rifle a couple of weeks ago to a private party. My first time doing so. Wrote out a bill of sale with his name, mine, serial #, model, and price. Then we had it notarized. He is one of my best friends. All done to make sure nothing comes back to bite either of us. Just good pratice in my eyes in this day and age. While I concede that some ATF rules are asinine, I don't think that them having a rule prohibiting felons from owning guns is one of them. So it is not "anti-ethical" IMO to any cause I approve of.
 
What part of that form proved to you that the buyer wasn't a felon?

A drivers license doesn't prove it. Him saying so doesn't prove it. Having him sign a form and getting it notarized doesn't prove it.

Keeping some sort of record for your own purposes is one thing. Doing it because you think you're protecting yourself or you'll avoid some sort of sting is another thing entirely.

And it's "antithetical" not "antiethical".

Antithetical:
Adjective:
Directly opposed or contrasted; mutually incompatible.
Connected with, containing, or using the rhetorical device of antithesis.
 
If I were the original purchaser of the firearm I would be inclined to want a bill of sale to CMA but if the gun was never "in my name" I just sell/trade and thank God I live in a state where I can sell a tool without a ton of paperwork and having the Feds involved.
I must admit I do keep a paper list of my firearms in case they are stollen. After a theft I did get back my G17 thanks to doing this.
 
Sorry, misread antithetical. Early in the morn on my vacation:D. I did mine for recordkeeping and to make sure that if the gun was ever stolen out of his possesion and recovered, it was not under my control at that time. Seems harmless enough and no skin off my nose. I would never sell a weapon to someone who was adverse to a bill of sale though. Seems shady to me.
 
I keep a record of all my firearms, make, model, SN, date purchased, maybe (maybe) where purchased or from whom purchased, but often not, but I don't usually record sales. Of course I don't sell very many, but that's not the point.

If I'm buying or selling a lawn mower or a bicycle I don't record this information, why do it with a firearm? I had a good buddy who sold several guns a few years back, and sure enough, one day the police showed up asking about the gun. He had sold it several months prior, and told the detective that it had been sold, but he didn't know who had it now. The detective said OK, we already know who has it, we're just running down the history, good day, sorry to bother you.

I buy quite often in FTF deals, and I don't give out my ID. Not required in New Mexico and if a seller can't tell I look old enough to buy it, and if we talk for a few minutes and he can't figure out I'm not a drug-crazed felon, then fine, no deal. But that hasn't happened yet.
 
IDs are a joke. I just cashed a check I wrote at my bank. I've been banking at this branch since 1974 and have many accounts, CDs, a bank box, a charge card, the usual stuff and they know me on sight from weekly visits. They have copies of my parents' POAs and a large CD I purchased with some of the money from the sale of their house. I have everything except an assigned parking place.

The point? The drive-thru teller wouldn't accept my picture ID issued by the Commonwealth of Virginia. After 37 years of employment I finally bothered getting an ID and the thing is USELESS for cashing a stupid check for $600. My check, not one written to me. USELESS government ID. Yeah, there was enough money in the account, about 60x as much.

Of course, it would probably work to buy a gun on the street corner. ;)
 
I keep a record of all my firearms, make, model, SN, date purchased, maybe (maybe) where purchased or from whom purchased, but often not, but I don't usually record sales. Of course I don't sell very many, but that's not the point.
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Check here at, www.atf.gov and look in publications and for publication #3312.8. Its free along with many other books and pamphlets.
 
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