Bushings for Berettas?? Possible.

R

Racegun

New member
Bushings for Berattas?? Possible.

:D

I suppose everyone who is familiar with the kingly 1911 knows about the bushing in the front of the gun under the muzzle. I helps the 1911 in its accuracy if fitted properly. What if there were a way to accurize the Beratta with such a device?

Say what??

No. I am serious. The barrel in the Beratta does float a bit along the slide and if you look at one you might see a slight difference in the way it lays in the slide. That little off center can make a difference in the accuracy which everybody craves in any gun's performance.

How about attaching a bushing to the front of the barrel to make it lock up the same way every time in the slide?

The process is very simple. You create a bushing which fits on the end of the barrel, fit the bushing to it and contour all the edges to fit the slide equally everytime the gun is fired. It is a permanent fixture which works like a charm. No more wobbling, no more flying shots and no one would ever know it is there because it looks like it was made with the gun.

Genie
Williams Gun Repair
Princeton, Texas
 
Weigand (sp) here in PA makes a nose piece for the Beretta. Two small holes are drilled and tapped at the muzzle and the piece is attatched there. Have heard some shooters talking about it, but I have never seen the need to put one on my Beretta as the accuracy is just fine.
 
The bushing is an integral part of the berrel as it is placed. The lockup is positive. It takes a bit of machine. You would not ever see a B so tight.
Genie
Williams Gun Repair
Princeton, Texas
 
Beretta has a competition model called a Combat Combo. They have those bushings, but I do not know if they will fit a reg 92/96FS. I am going to look into that myself pretty soon for the same reason. I like target shooting so I may get one for my 96 if it will fit. And yes, they have both 92 and 96 competition models. Wonder what MSRP is on those? Bet its worth it though. ;)

Oh yes, the description said they were replacable, and I have no idea what they are made of, but it did not look like metal. :rolleyes:
 
I have read several articles about two different menthods of doing this. One was a standard bushing and the other had two screws or pins that put upward pressure on the barrel. Both systems worked.

My question is why doesn't Berretta do this at the factory. Many auto pistols have a hardned bushing presssed into the slide and often you have to look close to even realize that it is there and not part of the slide itself.

Perhaphs Beretta did not consider accuracy of paramount importance in a combat pistol. Other manufactures of course do and have put such bushings in their guns for decades.
 
Perhaphs Beretta did not consider accuracy of paramount importance in a combat pistol. Other manufactures of course do and have put such bushings in their guns for decades.
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None of my pistols has one, even the 1911 (which is a compact and uses a bull barrel). Very good accuracy can be had without one (USP, Elite II) and it reduces field maintenance. I suspect it was the ease of field maintenance issue more than anything else that influenced the thinking -- one less part to worry about in the bush. There's a big difference between what's accurate enough for combat and what's needed in bullseye competition.
 
The bushing I am talking about is a permanent installation to the barrel. The bushing is fitted to the barrel which has been machined (cut back) to accomodate it. Then the whole thing is welded together and sculped to fit the slide. When finished the barrel/bushing looks like it grew there. The effect is very subtle, good looking and it works.

I wish I had a photo to show but the ones we've done are back with their owners.
Genie
Williams Gun Repair
Princeton, Texas
 
A bushing on a Beretta is kind of useless. Yes, the barrel is slightly off center at the front of the slide, but it does not affect accuracy at all. In adition, the barrel locks up in exactly the same place after each round. This is due to the locking block system, which 1911s and others do not have. When the slide is in battery, that barrel is not moving anywhere, unless you force it.
 
I read a very long article some time back about how the Army shooting team accurized the M9 (Beretta) so it could compete against the 1911 without getting humiliated in their inter-service competitions. The very first mod was a barrel bushing. Second was slide rail inserts to take out the slop. There were a bunch of other fine-tunes required. The cost would be so high that I don't know why a civilian would want to do it.

I can answer Leej's question as to why Beretta doesn't install barrel bushings at the factory: the looser barrel/slide lockup design has higher reliability, which is the primary objective of a combat weapon. The M9 was never intended for target shooting, but is fairly accurate without modifications. As for basic accuracy, a "good" 1911 from the factory will shoot 25 yard groups about 1.5"-2" with it's favorite ammo and the Beretta is maybe an inch or so outside of that (individual guns vary). The difference is that a very good 1911 can be accurized to shoot 3/4" groups by a good smith with readily available parts (and about $1000). Getting the M9 near that required rebuiding the slide/frame/barrel system from the inside out.
 
From the Beretta-L web site's armorers notes under "Things NOT to do to your Beretta":
Don't try to put barrel weights or bushings on the muzzle of your barrel in an attempt to lock the gun up tighter, etc. Not only don't they work (as mentioned above, the barrel locks during the firing process) but they interfere with the balance of the gun, which can accelerate wear on the barrel, frame, and locking block. Also, putting weights on the front of the barrel will most likely result in a point of impact 8" to 12" below point of aim.
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Shake
 
The bushing for the Beretta is just not that complicated. Of course the company doesn't advocate modifying their product if for no other reason than that would be having to admit a flaw in their design.

All I know is that the system works and it doesn't involve spending big $$.

Genie
 
Just curious...what exactly does it do to your gun?

Mine are without bushings and they hit dead on, even with the barrel slightly off center. Although they aren't 2", my groups are ragged holes in the centers of my targets. As I said in my previous post, the locking block returns the barrel to exactly the same position every time; it doesn't need to contact the front of the slide. It's kind of like a free-floated rifle barrel; accuracy is better if you don't have a bushing or tight slide contacting it, just as a FF rifle barrel doesn't contact the fore end because of the effect on accuracy.
 
Of course the company doesn't advocate modifying their product if for no other reason than that would be having to admit a flaw in their design.
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If there is a "flaw" in the design of the Beretta 92/96 series, as you suggest there is, it surely isn't the lack of a bushing to improve on already sufficient accuracy.

If Beretta armorers say bushings will accelerate wear on an (aluminum) frame that already has a shorter life than a steel frame, I'd tend to believe them.

Shake
 
I read a very long article some time back about how the Army shooting team accurized the M9 (Beretta) so it could compete against the 1911 without getting humiliated in their inter-service competitions. The very first mod was a barrel bushing. Second was slide rail inserts to take out the slop. There were a bunch of other fine-tunes required. The cost would be so high that I don't know why a civilian would want to do it.
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A Beretta would need rails to eliminate slop? But a military 1911 was tight enough to not need such a modification? I find this interesting, my Berettas are about as tight as any production handguns I've come across. Not to mention, they are much more accurate than I am. Not saying your info is false, just goes against what I would think.
 
I believe I've read the same article.

IIRC the rails were inserted to prolong frame life. Could be mistaken, its been a while.

Shake
 
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I Gotta Side With Pat on This One-

Why screw with the design unless your shooting bullseye matches complete with alibis.
I bro of mine is a Beretta freak and talked me into buying the latest greatest 92, the Elite. The shorter stainless barrel shot two inchs at 25yds with select ammo even with factory scoring in the rifling. I later replaced the barrel with a mil-spec chrome lined barrel and the gun now regularly does an inch at 25yds and minute of popcan out to 100yds.
As Pat implied, it's the locking block fit that's more important than forward barrel lockup,it's a Beretta not a 1911.
 
A bushing is needed for accuracy? Guess those SIG guys should toss their guns into the junkpile.

I read a very long article some time back about how the Army shooting team accurized the M9 (Beretta) so it could compete against the 1911 without getting humiliated in their inter-service competitions. The very first mod was a barrel bushing. Second was slide rail inserts to take out the slop. There were a bunch of other fine-tunes required. The cost would be so high that I don't know why a civilian would want to do it.
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This all sound like standard things that you do to a military 1911 to make it match accurate. As fun as a 1911 is, I have to point out that many small modifications to the basic 1911 were done to make it accurate. New bushings to have a consistant lock-up were needed on that design. Accurail got its start selling a product to straighten out 1911 rails. Another option they used to have was to weld extra metal on the 1911 rails so they could work it down to a nice, tight fit. Take a look at what products early 1911-smiths produced and ask yourself why you need that for an already accurate gun?
Standard 1911's (pre-Kimber and Springfield Armory) would not shoot 2" groups without the blessing of GOD. And in the '50s these accurized guns would wear out (for match accuracy) in less than 5000 rounds from what I heard. Modern production standards has raised the bar for what is expected out of the box.
On the other hand I can get a Jarvis barrel for my Beretta. For more accuracy I can have that barrel fitted.
This isn't meant as a flame on the 1911, I carry one, a Commander style, every day. But we should remember all the little modifications that were added that we take for granted today.
 
A bushing is needed for accuracy? Guess those SIG guys should toss their guns into the junkpile
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None of my pistols has one, even the 1911 (which is a compact and uses a bull barrel
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Gentlemen, Gentlemen there seems to be a lot of confusion over just how auto pistols are actually manufactured.

Most auto pistols have either the entire slide hardned or like the Sig have seperate nose piece welded into the front of the slide. The welding alone may produce sufficient heat to hardend the nose piece. The nose piece is the ground flush with the slide so that it appears that the slide is one piece. It is not. The grinding also produces heat. Sig may also heat treat this piece before it is attached to the end of the slide.

In other words wether people are aware of it or not most but not all auto pistols do indeed have the end of the slide hardened. If they did not the barrel which is harder than the slide would soon wear the slide out.

The best method of manufacture is the detachable bushing because when the end of the slide does wear out it is much cheaper to replace a bushing than an entire slide. The reason not all manufactures use a bushing is because of cost. It is much cheaper to produce a pistol without one rather than make a seperate part and then machine the slide to accept a detachable part. The most consistantly accurate pistols are those that immobilize the barrel both fore and aft and return the barrel to the same or nearly same position from shot to shot. I have never owned an accurate pistol that did not have some kind of solid muzzle contact to the end of the slide. The exception is the blow back pocket pistols that have the barrel pressed into the frame because they do not rotate or tip or move rearward as in locked breach pistols. Many 22 rimfires barrels are also immobilized in various ways because they are blow back operated and the barrel does not need to move to unlock from the breachblock.

AS I have stated before some bushings are very hard to even detect because after they are pressed in or welded in they are often ground down and they blend right in with the slide making it sometimes impossible to detect that they are a seperate piece from the slide.

AS far as the Beretta is concerned my Italian Beretta's barrel did touch the front of the slide resulting in less than steller accuracy. My American Beretta has a free floating barrel but you can wiggle the barrel around by putting thumb pressure on the end of the barrel. All this does not produce consistant accuracy. The pistol is fine for a combat piece but does not have the consistant accuracy that a closely fitted bushing produces. Yes my Berretta does produce some very good groups but it also shoots a lot of flyers because of the unsupported end of the barrel. It is simply a mechanical fact of life because no matter how tight the lock up is on the locking block you still have the end of the barrel that is not secure in its mounting and that is what produces the shots that sometimes wonder out of the main group.
 
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