Bush vetoes ban on harsh interrogation

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Wow, dangerous waters there
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Nowhere near so dangerous as leaving it to Pelosi et al. But I perceive, PlayboyPenguin, that you are among those whose views are unassailable and absolute. To disagree is to confess error, nay, perversity.
 
Nowhere near so dangerous as leaving it to Pelosi et al. But I perceive, PlayboyPenguin, that you are among those whose views are unassailable and absolute. To disagree is to confess error, nay, perversity.
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If by that you mean I have an educated and experienced perspective on this matter and that I do not allow my judgement to be clouded by my personal thirst for vengeance or my own prejudices to cloud the facts...then I agree with you.
 
According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.
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There you have it, waterboarding provided proof that Iraq was training Al-Quaeda, which it wasn't by the way. And there you go, thousands of dead Americans and Iraqis, hundreds of billions spent on the war and the American economy down the tubes.

Woo! USA! USA!

Full story

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
 
What??? You mean he simply made up what he thought they wanted to hear out of a sense of physical self preservation? Who could have figured that a human being would do that? :rolleyes:
 
I'm afraid so Playboy. As it turns out the invasion of Iraq was just an Al-Qaeda conspiracy after all. They made George invade by telling him just what he wanted to hear.

How Machiavellian of them.
 
Of course information that differs from PBP's misconception and reveals actual LACK of the first hand knowledge alleged cannot possibly be true. Brush off the on it's face actuality of the information as 'obviously biased' if it shows your wrong. And you are wrong PBP. Flat wrong. Waterboarding does actually work to actually make assets with capital spill. EVERY time without fail. If they know, they spill.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1970816/posts
http://thehill.com/byron-york/when-waterboarding-works-2007-12-13.html
http://www.retrieverweekly.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=3053&format=html
http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3741
http://patterico.com/2007/12/11/mor...-former-cia-agent-who-says-it-may-be-torture/

More and more to come.........

Get hot. Get loud. Go veer off but in this one your flat out wrong.

To make light of how the very necessary work of the intelligence community gets it done for political expedience is what is repugnant.

Take the FISA revisions away so the international phone calls can proceed, then take away the single most efficient and non life threatening means of capital extraction, and claim no responsibility WHEN the gaps get exploited. Now god forbid it happens before GWB leaves office right, wink wink. (Toss in some new pro Chavez legislation to boot) That will wipe out the ZERO terrorist attacks proving effective protection of Americans thing right. The beauty of attacking the Intel community is their justifications and evidence of effectiveness are classified and even though THEY are will to 'leak' enough info to clod things for their political advantage the info that would clarify is a crime to release. Great position for those repugnant enough to jeopardize effective counter terrorism methods for political expedience eh.


When it takes looking at every fuzzy thing and hanging on to loose logic to make a case that means your WRONG and won't face it.

But PBP is used to that place right. If you don't agree then your a neocon that probably has less guns in your collection anyway.
 
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People, we're not talking about murder here, we are talking about waterboarding. While I'm sure it's pretty uncomfortable, it's not killing anyone, or even leaving them permanantly damaged.

We are talking about terrorists. These are the same people who blow themselves up and be-head innocent people in the name of their religion. I am not suggesting we be-head anyone, but to level the playing field just a little ought not to be out of the question.

For those of you who are so worried about treating terriorists with respect, I would like to know how you would fo about getting information from these guys? Good cop bad cop? Or maybe become their friends to gain their trust?
 
Ask the Weavers or the Branch Davidians what exactly the difference is; when the people in power have the ability to rewrite the definitions they choose on a whim or with a stroke of a pen, you'd better hope that someone doesn't decide that YOU'RE the next target.
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^ This.
 
Waterboarding does actually work to actually make assets with capital spill. EVERY time without fail. If they know, they spill.
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You just completely killed your credibility with that absurd absolute.

And post all the partisan support editorials you want...that is all they are..."editorials"...by people trying to validate a method that is known to be ineffectual for obtaining reliable information.

I just did a web search on "torture does not work" and I found 7,658 articles (many of which are actual case studies) attesting to exactly what I have said...any person placed into a position of being tortured will yield whatever information they feel will end the torture regardless of whether it is true or not.

You have even seen documented examples of this in other people posts but still believe it is effective "every time"...that is pretty illogical. I also doubt you can deny the fact that I could get you to admit to any crime I choose if I was allowed to torture you until you confessed yet you still believe it is an effective method for learning the truth?
 
None, and how many times have you witnessed it be successful...and what expertise or experience do you bring to the table?
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I don't have any. However you made the assertion that because you were in MI you have some superior knowledge that the rest of us don't have regarding waterboarding. However, since you have no experience with waterboarding, you don't have any special expertise. Further, since its the CIA and not MI that usually does these interrogations, your experience there isn't really applicable either.


Face it, all the top people in the intelligence game will tell you physical torture is not effective in retrieving true information. It is only good in coercing people into saying what you want them to say or at least saying what they think you want to hear.
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Then how do you explain Khaled Sheik Muhammed? How do you explain CIA reps reporting on several news programs that waterboarding is unequivocally effective and has actually produced actionable information?

At this point, the question of whether waterboarding works is long past. If people don't want to use it, thats a different argument. However stating it doesn't work simply doesn't reflect the facts.
 
Then how do you explain Khaled Sheik Muhammed? How do you explain CIA reps reporting on several news programs that waterboarding is unequivocally effective and has actually produced actionable information?
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It is easy to explain. You are assuming that just because one person out of thousands gave up some useful information during sessions of questioning that included waterboarding at one point yielded that info during the waterboarding and that the one case out of thousands somehow negates all the tons of false information that ir obtained during torture.

Show me one true CIA agent that went on the air and said "torture works" and then validated his stance with relevant information and went as far as to state it gets you truthful information. Torture does indeed word...if your only goal is to get validation of what you want to hear. Like, in the instance cited by other member, if you wanted someone to say what you need them to say to help validate your desire to go to war. Even the most basic training on the interview process in the military teaches lessons on "the ineffectiveness of torture"...there are even entire classes devoted to how torture is not only not effective but completely detrimental to the whole process and how it not only undermines true intelligence gathering scenerios and methods but how it also cause us to suffer the wrath of the free world and loses us the moral high ground.
 
I just did a web search on "torture does not work" and I found 7,658 articles (many of which are actual case studies) attesting to exactly what I have said...any person placed into a position of being tortured will yield whatever information they feel will end the torture regardless of whether it is true or not.
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That may be true, however torture and waterboarding are not the same. Furthermore, the issue of whether the intelligence is correct isn't a problem. The people we interrogate are kept in captivity. If the info turns out to be bogus, then they go right back into the chair.
 
At any rate, the waterboarding debate is all for political theater. In the doomsday scenario -- nuke in US city -- the President, regardless of who it is, will authorize any technique that has a chance of success. (I think we all actually, are aware of this.)

(I have always found it interesting that the macho Muslim males who would have rather died than suffer the indignity of wearing women's panties on their head...never actually requested the execution. "Thank you sir! May I have more panties?")
 
That may be true, however torture and waterboarding are not the same. Furthermore, the issue of whether the intelligence is correct isn't a problem. The people we interrogate are kept in captivity. If the info turns out to be bogus, then they go right back into the chair.
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Yes, it is...despite what some people want to tell you...waterboarding is clearly noted as torture in most definitive texts on the subject. It definately was in the texts we used during my AIT training. Politicians are trying to create the appearance of a grey area where one does not exist.
 
It is easy to explain. You are assuming that just because one person out of thousands gave up some useful information during sessions of questioning that included waterboarding at one point yielded that info during the waterboarding and that the one case out of thousands somehow negates all the tons of false information that ir obtained during torture.
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And what information do you have that says we have waterboarded thousands?

And just so I know where you're coming from, how many people have you actually interrogated? How about forcefully interrogated?


Show me one true CIA agent that went on the air and said "torture works" and then validated his stance with relevant information and went as far as to state it gets you truthful information.
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Ok. Retired CIA agent John Kiriakou made the rounds of network and cable news programs describing how waterboarding, had prompted Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah to provide critical information after he had held out for weeks.

Even the most basic training on the interview process in the military teaches lessons on "the ineffectiveness of torture"...there are even entire classes devoted to how torture is not only not effective but completely detrimental to the whole process and how it not only undermines true intelligence gathering scenerios and methods but how it also cause us to suffer the wrath of the free world and loses us the moral high ground.
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But your argument's premise is that the military is the end all and be all of intelligence gathering. It isn't. Not by a long shot.
 
Yes, it is...despite what some people want to tell you...waterboarding is clearly noted as torture in most definitive texts on the subject. It definately was in the texts we used during my AIT training. Politicians are trying to create the appearance of a grey area where one does not exist.
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No, not really. The classical definition of torture is the use of physical pain and disfigurement to extract information. Waterboarding causes no physical pain and leaves no injury. Its a purely a psychological tool.

I guess I'm old school, but if it doesn't bleed you, shock you, stick you or bash you, its not torture.
 
As other have pointed out, now that waterboarding has been definitively proven by the Bush administration to be an interrogation technique, and not torture, it should now also be available to use it to interrogate criminals in general, not just "enemy combatants". Imagine the awesome crimefighting tool that our police will soon have at their disposal. For example, lets say the police have reason to believe that a man is selling drugs, but they can't get any evidence of that, but feel his mother would have information that might be incriminating. She could be asked a few questions regarding this, and if she fails to provide the incriminating information the police need, we could step up the interrogation with a little waterboarding, and I am sure she will soon remember everything the police want her to remember. There is nothing morally wrong with this, if waterboarding is simply interrogation.

Imagine how simple an IRS audit could become if IRS agents are allowed to waterboard taxpayers suspected of cheating on their taxes. You would see tax compliance rates soar to new highs in no time. We would save millions of dollars because our government would not have to conduct long, drawn out audits and investigations.
 
73 Jock said:
At any rate, the waterboarding debate is all for political theater. In the doomsday scenario -- nuke in US city -- the President, regardless of who it is, will authorize any technique that has a chance of success. (I think we all actually, are aware of this.)
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Does anyone not believe this?
 
Ok. Retired CIA agent John Kiriakou made the rounds of network and cable news programs describing how waterboarding, had prompted Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah to provide critical information after he had held out for weeks
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Citing one example is not a statement on the process as a whole. I can cite one example where allowing a person to own a gun was a very bad idea and lead to unnecessary deaths. That does not making owning a gun a negative practice.

Plus, there is a lot of debate as to whether this story even has any truth to it since when congress asked for the tapes of the interrogation they were told that they had been "mysteriously" destroyed. So in other words, when they were asked to put their money where their mouths were they failed to do so under dubious circumstances. The same gentleman that supposedly yielded this information was also later found to have no true understanding of operations and was actually in reality mentally ill and was only used as a "go through guy."

There is all kinds of information and case studies available on the topic. Go read some of it (while weeding out editorials and talking heads trying to validat ethe process) and see what you find. Then see if you think this one unsubstantiated statement invalidates all the tons of information to the contrary.
 
The classical definition of torture is the use of physical pain and disfigurement to extract information. Waterboarding causes no physical pain and leaves no injury. Its a purely a psychological tool.
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I agree. And for that matter, forced sex acts should be allowed also. If done under controlled circumstances, so that no physical injury is inflicted, rape would be an outstanding tool that we could use to defend freedom and keep us safe from the evil-doers. In a controlled environment, rape would be a strictly psychological tool as well.
 
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