Bush thinks out-sourcing isn't a problem...

A

aspen1964

New member
(he isn't alone)..what would happen if many nations who we depend for manufactured goods we barely make anymore became our foes or if conflict took them by storm...

in the past..we managed to confront and overcome harsh times(war)..because of our ability to be self-dependant in so many areas..now we are becoming a dependant nation in so many areas...failure to look at the distant future effects cause disaster...
 
Funny you should bring this up, Aspen. I listened to an interview with an author discussing the "global" economy. He was comparing it with the way the old Soviet Union operated. He said all was well as long as ALL the parties showed up for work. When things got shaky, the "house of cards" that was the "network" of industry supporting the union fell quickly. The same way it could happen again, on a larger scale. My greatest fear is that we give up all our heavy industrial capability, then we are truly at the mercy of, well, whoever causes the disruption. Look what's happening with oil, for instance.
Josh
 
I think we need to look at the illegal problem before we look at the outsourcing problem. They are trying to fragment us by putting out so many problems that we can't focus.:mad:
 
agreed..I can't help thinking Bush uses world problems to keep our focus there..which shows how much faith I have lost in him since the last election..:mad:.I am thinking he will go down in my book as a colossal failure...in a time too critical to have one in charge...
 
The ruling elite is just giggly over the prospects of globalization. Bush is right there with 'em. We'll see how happy everyone is when the global economy tanks and there is no one around sufficiently self sufficient to pull themselves out. In other words, I assume the global business cycle will have wider swings than in the past.

Just for the record; I assume nothing good comes out of government mandated globalism.
 
They are trying to fragment us by putting out so many problems that we can't focus.
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Who is they? The government? The illegals? People in other countries?

I think I see what you're getting at. As Joe Average middle class guy I have always felt there is a big party out there and I wasn't invited. :(
 
Outsourcing has been going on for a very long time, in one way or another. For example, GM "outsources" for tires; they don't make their own. Without tires, their vehicles are worthless. However, there are plenty of tire makers, so if one has problems--Firestone, anyone?--another supplier is available. Many of the same advantages, disadvantages, and risk management solutions that apply to GM's situation apply as well to nations in the global economy. Whether national governments are heeding those solutions is a different (though related) conversation.
 
heh, we're too dependent...

We have problems to fix with our government, and our industy yet we push other countries around for their resources. *Cough*OIL*cough* by supporting tyrants like the Saudi family we are risking more than just terrorists who want us to leave the Middle East, we are also facing a major energy crisis if the Middle East decides to screw us over and really drive up oil prices on us. (Don't believe me about the Saudi family being tyrants? Look at their laws and how their own people are treated like $4!7.) Our oil addiction is just like the herion junkie putting one more into their arm (and I wouldn't be surprised if the analogy very much is also literal for these big oil companies.) How about we learn to be self-sufficient and actually revive the idea that ingenuity, honesty, and integrity are all values that we want to regain as American business. For once, forget oil, let's think of something better, like ethanol from corn or marinol from hemp. Biofuels are the way to go, they burn cleaner and are completely renewable as an energy resource. All it takes is 3% of American farmland, some people brave enough to fight big oil, and some honest politicians (when pigs fly.) to help innovative and better business through use of incentives. With biofuels we could be self sufficient as a country when it comes to energy, prices for gas would drop significantly, and I'm very sure much of our already threatened environment could regain some much needed ground.


Epyon
 
actually revive the idea that ingenuity, honesty, and integrity are all values that we want to regain as American business
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Plain, clear, excellent, we will fail without standards, I would say morals
but that may offend some.:rolleyes:

Globalization will only bring down the middle-class and working poor of
this country, it's in process now and will continue until we wake up.
 
We complain because items are outsourced because it is cheaper to make things outside the US (thanks primarily to the millions of laws manufacturers in the US must live by). Imagine the complaining without outsourcing. Add $20,000 to your next car purchase. Can't have it both ways.
 
We have problems to fix with our government, and our industy yet we push other countries around for their resources..*Cough*OIL*cough* by supporting tyrants like the Saudi family ...
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We always have and always will have problems to fix with our government and our industries. This is true of all nations past and present. That's the nature of imperfect humanity.

As for pushing other countries around, I guess we're not very good at it, considering the increasing cost of oil that we are buying from those countries we are pushing around.

As for supporting tyrants, we get back to the old "engagement versus isolationist" debate. Face it, perfection eludes countries just as much as it eludes individuals. Some are more imperfect than others, and all are imperfect in different ways. Look at the UN membership, and you will see a lot of dictatorships. If we engage with them--that is, engage with most of the world--are we supporting tyrants? If we turn isolationist, are we abandoning the world and leaving it to the dictators?

Turning away from most countries of the world simply because they aren't perfect won't work.
we are risking more than just terrorists who want us to leave the Middle East, we are also facing a major energy crisis if the Middle East decides to screw us over and really drive up oil prices on us.
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They could do that at any time, but they don't. Why? Because they are as addicted to our dollars as we are to their petro. Without our dollars and technology, they would be seriously hurt economically, and then down would come the House of Saud, cradle and all. (Not that I would shed any tears, given the way they treat their people.) China is in a similar situation; without our dollars, their economy would screech to a halt.
How about we learn to be self-sufficient and actually revive the idea that ingenuity, honesty, and integrity are all values that we want to regain as American business.
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How about it's been a very long time since any major country (and most minor ones) has been self-sufficient. How about there are vital commodities that the US simply doesn't have, making self-sufficiency impossible.

Have you ever seen Redford's film, IN THIS WORLD, about the two Afghan brothers trying to escape to the UK? I don't care for Redford's politics, but if you watch that film closely, especially the scenes in Afghanistan, you should notice something: Practically everything modern comes from outside. Phones, cars, trucks, TVs, and radios just to name a few. And that's just Afghanistan, a place one might reasonably expect would be self-sufficient since they have no "world-stage" ambitions to support.
 
WhyteP38 good points...

I like your arguments. I do understand that every country does have its share of problems, and there is no panacea to fix it all. However, what would happen if the Saudis decided NOT to give us oil anymore for some reason? I'm fairly sure that it'll draw us into a war with them as well. I also agree that globalization will cause an even bigger rift in rich and poor. It can also leave room for corporations to totally buy out governments (as if that hasn't happened already.) Many times I question are we at war for patriotic reasons? Or are we at war because lobbying sleazy CEOs who want their cut are pulling the strings on our government? I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there needs to be a balance between what should be outsourced and what should remain domestic.

To wingman, morality doesn't necessarily constitute religion. (If that's what you meant by morals.) One can have morals without religion.


Epyon
 
:rolleyes: naw outsourcing american jobs overseas to build up their economy while eroding ours..naw not a problem.:rolleyes:

where are the jobs and the income they bring going to come from if they are going overseas?cheaper labor here perhaps. not that Im implying theres any correlation between the demand for cheap labor,stagnated wages and shipping american jobs overseas -along with the tax cuts that "worked"( worked for whom?), supposedly brought the poor out of the depths and everyone is peaches and creame.gimme a break.what a load of crap.


the realization is shipping american jobs overseas is shipping income overseas for the people making the product,whatever it may be..then one might wonder where these people that just had their jobs shipped off,are going to go.
 
Epyon:

However, what would happen if the Saudis decided NOT to give us oil anymore for some reason? I'm fairly sure that it'll draw us into a war with them as well.
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Doubtful. First, OBL is an enemy of the House of Saud, which has not particularly endeared itself to the Saudi populace. The Saudi royals are already having issues with keeping themselves at the top of their food chain. A significant disturbance to their economy would give OBL an opportunity to bring them down. Second, there are other sources of oil and energy. It might be enormously expensive, but a war with Saudi Arabia over oil is unlikely.
also agree that globalization will cause an even bigger rift in rich and poor.
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Standards of living are rising in places such as India and China. That would not happen without globalization. Also, sometimes the rift between rich and poor widens because some poor people do nothing to improve their circumstances. If one guys works two jobs and another guy sits and watches TV all day, I see no problem with a widening economic rift between the two people. In fact, I'd be alarmed if the rift didn't widen.

People often toss around the phrase "the rift between rich and poor is getting bigger" without understanding the various elements involved. It's a simple one-size-fits-all catchphrase that doesn't fit a non-simple, varied-size situation.
Many times I question are we at war for patriotic reasons? Or are we at war because lobbying sleazy CEOs who want their cut are pulling the strings on our government?
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Both, but that's been happening for thousands of years. It will always be so. "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom" also applies both to the management of wars and to the management of economies, including globalization. Business are useful in both situations, but they should not be given command of those same situations.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there needs to be a balance between what should be outsourced and what should remain domestic.
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You can't balance it because it is ever-changing. What you can do is manage it. The problem is that a lot of folks in government want to either micromanage it or absentee manage it. Neither extreme works for anyone very well or for very long.
 
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where are the jobs and the income they bring going to come from if they are going overseas?cheaper labor here perhaps. not that Im implying theres any correlation between the demand for cheap labor,stagnated wages and shipping american jobs overseas -along with the tax cuts that "worked"( worked for whom?), supposedly brought the poor out of the depths and everyone is peaches and creame.gimme a break.what a load of crap.

the realization is shipping american jobs overseas is shipping income overseas for the people making the product,whatever it may be..then one might wonder where these people that just had their jobs shipped off,are going to go.
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Partly true, partly not true. For example, computer programmers in India are now demanding higher wages, which does at least three things: 1) makes our programmers more price competitive because the wage gap shrinks, 2) makes it possible for computer programmers in other countries, such as South Korea, to be more price competitive because their wages now seem even lower in relation to India and the US, and 3) if the Indian programmers get the wages they want, they will have more money to spend on things made in other places such as the US.

Like all things, however, there are unhealthy extremes at either end. For example, you can drown from too much water or die of thirst from too little. While I would trust businesses to understand and perform in the marketplace, I would not trust them to handle national policy. Few companies have any loyalty but to themselves and to their stockholders. For any nation to survive, it must maintain control over its own interests rather than subcontracting that responsibility to businesses.
 
kinda a hot button for me..outsourcing

I think it does widen the rift between the rich and the poor.look at what has already happened.big companies giving ceos million dollar bonuses..they sell a cheaper product made in x country overseas while cutting their american workforce in half to save money,sure it makes economical sense to them in business terms and money but what of those people that made the product and their lives?no local tax revenues and no money for schools for the ones left living in the area.who then gets to pay for it?retirees?elderly?young couples making minimum wages?small business that are struggling to pay their rent?


call me an idiot,im not a self professed economist but I have seen what outsourcing has done to many small towns.I have listened to borderline retirement age research engineers try and find a job after theirs has moved overseas and that of others who went from 13 an hour to 7. flame away.

p38,I understand where youre coming from and if I understand correctly, it would help increase spending and the economy overseas and having them buy american made goods but where Im at is the effects on jobs here in communities like mine where the places closed up and moved out.I havent seen any good come from it.
 
GDM:

No need to flame you. You're talking about real pain. And actually, you're talking about an aspect of globalization that I said worries me: the absentee management approach.

Henry Ford once made a simple yet brilliant observation that your workers can't afford to buy your products if you don't pay them enough. I can't recall when he made that statement, but I'm guessing around the 1920s. Regardless, the point is that even after some 80 years or so, many businesses still maintain a pre-20th century short-sighted bottom-line approach to their operations. Some features of globalization can make it even worse.

And guess what? If you're a big exec living in the US and the standard of living around you goes down, you'll be affected too. One day, you're driving a limo through thriving streets; 20 years later, you're in an armored limo threading your way through an urban wasteland. Do you really enjoy living in a multi-million-dollar home with barred windows?

Your neighbor's prosperity enhances your prosperty, and vice versa.
 
Hey, as long as we can keep moving bogus services like "Search engine optimization" overseas, the more the better.
 
(standing ovation)well said p38!


Im glad other countries are getting better off but at the same time,we need those jobs here too.

what happens is a community that was a good place to live and work, becomes a bedroom community with low income being the norm...folks driving distances to find better work and better income and paying for it at the pump with ever increasing everything costs. it disgusts me to hear how ceos are getting millions in bonuses when they just laid off thousands of american workers..who had families as well....while moving overseas for cheaper labor and importing poverty.

I do know something needs to be addressed here before we can help our neighbors.just my 2 cents.
 
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