Burn rate, charge weight, barrel length?

USSR said:
I have long questioned Buffalo Bore's listed velocities. There is nothing that requires them to accept SAAMI pressure standards.
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There is nothing that requires any US ammo maker to accept SAAMI pressure standards, since compliance is voluntary.

FWIW, I have chronographed some of their 45 Super ammo. Speeds are from a 5.0" Kart barrel, an average of 10 shots;

200 gr JHP advertised speed of 1,200 fps, chronographed at 1,252 fps.
230 gr JHP advertised speed of 1,100 fps, chronographed at 1,140 fps.

So, yeah, their speeds are off. They are faster than advertised.

Let us know when you chronograph their ammo and get back to us.
 
So, yeah, their speeds are off. They are faster than advertised.
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In your barrel. In a different barrel the results might be the exact opposite, and in another barrel somewhere in between. ALL barrels are a little different some faster than average, some not. Don't get hung up on a handful or even a double handful of fps. It doesn't really matter.

I have seen over 100fps difference in the same ammo in three different guns all with nominal 6" barrels using one particular load and a different range of velocity from the same guns with a different load.

IF you get exactly what they got, its serendipity. If you get something close, above or below, its usual. IF you get something drastically higher or lower, its uncommon, but not impossible.
 
The usual criticism of BB and other boutique ammo makers is that their claimed speeds are generous/optimistic, that is, higher than the ammo actually produces.

I've chronographed a few loads from these various ammo makers, and as noted, some are short of their advertised speeds, and some are faster, and some are very close. But the same holds true for ammo from the big ammo makers (Federal, etc). Their speeds can be faster or slower than advertised.

It varies from lot to lot and which exact gun fires it.
 
My criticism of Buffalo Bore is, not with their advertised velocities, but rather whether they are obtaining these velocities staying within SAAMI pressure specs. If they are exceeding SAAMI pressure specs, which I suspect, then there is no way for a responsible handloader to duplicate their velocities. I know a guy who pressure tests ammo, and if I had some BB ammo I would certainly have him test it.

Don
 
USSR said:
My criticism of Buffalo Bore is, not with their advertised velocities, but rather whether they are obtaining these velocities staying within SAAMI pressure specs. If they are exceeding SAAMI pressure specs, which I suspect, then there is no way for a responsible handloader to duplicate their velocities. I know a guy who pressure tests ammo, and if I had some BB ammo I would certainly have him test it.
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You could ask Buffalo Bore. But I suppose you wouldn't believe them, would you.

So buy a bunch of their ammo and test it.

You are aware that selecting the right gunpowder can often make a big difference in velocity, right? No, I suppose you don't understand that. BB might have access to powders we handloader do not, too, as Unclenick said.

A handloader can match some of their 9mm +P speeds without even going +P with the right off-the-shelf powder.

And one can also exceed their 38 Super +P ammo with the right gunpowder, too. By quite a bit!

P.S. While you're at it, check the pressure of similar ammo from the major manufacturers, too. They might not be sticking to SAAMI specs either. Be sure to check Remington's 357 SJHP ammo. It has a reputation for being especially hot, and has, in my hands and others, produced the fastest speeds of all mainstream 357 Magnum ammo.

And don't forget Underwood and DoubleTap. Their ammo is hot, too.

Throw in some hot handloads, too. If you're going to do it, do it right.
 
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You could ask Buffalo Bore. But I suppose you wouldn't believe them, would you.

You are aware that selecting the right gunpowder can often make a big difference in velocity, right? No, I suppose you don't understand that.
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74A95,

Why are you attacking me simply for my opinion on Buffalo Bore ammo? Unless you have a financial interest in them, there is no need to be nasty. I run into a lot of guys on this site that have opinions contrary to mine, but I treat them with respect.

Don
 
Back to the OP's question regarding reloading .38 Special +P ammo:

I'm not trying to push to the bleeding edge. I'm just trying to better understand and figure out a way to test to find which powders are burning the most efficiency and in what charge weight zones in my barrel lengths.

Ideally My goal is to have the 158g SWC coming out of both guns at 950 fps, but I know that may not be possible with the snubbie.
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I stand by my statement based on reloading and chronographing of 158gr SWC .38 Special +P loads:

You likely won't be able to get 950fps out of a .38 Special with a 1.8 inch barrel with a 158gr SWC using a safe load. I did testing with what is known as "the FBI Load" several years back. The very best load I found was 7.0gr of HS-6 with a 158gr SWCHP, which gave me 940fps out of my 2.5 inch snubbie.
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Don
 
USSR said:
My criticism of Buffalo Bore is, not with their advertised velocities, but rather whether they are obtaining these velocities staying within SAAMI pressure specs. If they are exceeding SAAMI pressure specs, which I suspect, then there is no way for a responsible handloader to duplicate their velocities. I know a guy who pressure tests ammo, and if I had some BB ammo I would certainly have him test it.

Don
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CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

So, trying not to get to too deep into the weeds here, but here we go. Never used buffalo bore, might try some eventually. They have standard pressure and +P loads listed. There is no reason that I know of to believe they don't follow SAAMI specs. My guess is they are loading to max pressure with minimal to no buffer between their loads and MAX pressure. I suspect many companies build safety margins into their load date. but no way to know for sure at this point. and I have not heard of buffalo bore or underwood blowing any guns up, although I'm sure someone will have a article.

If anyone has quick load, here is an interesting one. Found this video where a guy cloned a Buffalow bore load. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcKcKxI6DU&list=PLR31ON9P7uqCedvduzglvyOkA8n6B2G5Y&index=11

It is the 357 mag outdoorsman. 180g wide flat point gas checked 22bhn bullet at 1375 fps out of a 4in barrel.

Based on his research it looks like Hodgdon Lil'Gun at 15.7 to 15.8g The listed published max is 15.0g, so 0.8g over published max. Curious to see what quickload has it at.

On a side note, I shot an e-mail off to buffalo bore asking if they follow SAAMI specs. Hopefully we will have an answer straight from the horses mouth before long.
 
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And the buffalo bore issue put to rest. They responded to my e-mail VERY fast.

Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore Ammo, and the designer of all of our ammo, was asked a similar set of questions recently so, I have posted Tim’s response below.


Some loads simply do not have SAAMI standards to load by. Loads such as 45Colt+P, 9MM+P+, 45-70+P, 45 Super, 460 Rowland and there are many, many more, even though loading manuals produced by all the big bullet and powder manufacturers include data for creating such loads. If SAAMI does not even recognize such loads exist, then it would be impossible to make factory ammo that is SAAMI compliant for those loads.

However, our loads like 9MM, 9MM+P, 45 acp, 45 acp+P, 40 S&W, 380 auto, etc., etc., etc. are all SAAMI compliant. 

In the last 25 years, there have been huge leaps forward in propellant development. We can get higher velocities at lower pressures than ever before, but if folks are stuck on using the older powders they learned on, they are missing this boat. Unfortunately, many of these cutting edge powders are not available in canister form for the shooting public, yet.


Best Regards,
Wayne Brown
Buffalo Bore Ammo
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Shadow9mm said:
It is the 357 mag outdoorsman. 180g wide flat point gas checked 22bhn bullet at 1375 fps out of a 4in barrel.

Based on his research it looks like Hodgdon Lil'Gun at 15.7 to 15.8g The listed published max is 15.0g, so 0.8g over published max. Curious to see what quickload has it at.

On a side note, I shot an e-mail off to buffalo bore asking if they follow SAAMI specs. Hopefully we will have an answer straight from the horses mouth before long.
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If you're referring to Hodgdon's online data, yes, they list 15.0 grains as max. HOWEVER, the pressure they show is 34,500 CUP. The SAAMI max pressure is 45,000 CUP, so they are a long way from max pressure. Maybe they couldn't get more than that in the case.

Also, Hodgdon is using a very different bullet, a 180 grain Nosler Partition bullet, not a cast bullet.

I asked BB the same question almost 2 weeks ago. They responded quickly. I asked that they consider putting it on their website. I don't see it posted yet. Maybe this will spur them to do it quickly.
 
and there it is, something ammo companies have always been doing, using powder that is not commercially available to the handloader.

We can't often duplicate exactly what they do simply because they use powders and powder blends we can't get.

Really big ammo outfits deal in powder by the ton or by the multi ton boxcar load at a time. Variations in powder lot burn characteristics are not the concern they are to you and I.

IF the lot they're running low on is different from the stuff they're getting to resupply with its not a huge deal, their labs will do testing and adjust the powder charges of their ammo to obtain the same approximate velocity and pressures as the old lot produced. This might mean a difference of a few grains in each individual powder charge but that's a small matter, because the standard is not a certain weight of powder charge, it is a certain velocity and pressure range.
 
Picking powders is about as easy as picking a good wife .
Then throw in a powder shortage and you can't load with the powder you want ...
You have to load with whatever powder you can find .
Lets talk about 38 special and 357 magnum .
Light loads and target loads ... fast burning powders - Bullseye, Red Dot , AA #2 , hp-38 , etc.
Medium loads , standard mid range and +P loads ... medium burning - Unique , AA #5 , HS-5 , Universal , etc.
357 magnum , heavy hunting loads ...slow power - 2400 , HS7 , H110 , etc.

Barrel lengths ... don't worry about it ... a good 357 Magnum load in a 6" barrel will usually be a good load in a 2" barrel ... you may tweak the charge ... but the powder will be good in all .
Gary
 
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