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burglar's family gets 270 grand
- Thread starter youngunz4life
- Start date
Catfishman
New member
How about something that didn't net them a civil judgement against them for over a quarter of a million dollars?
Something?
Exactly what?
Avoid your own property after dark?
Hold an armed robber at gun point in the dark?
It's not the business owners fault that liberal juries in liberal states like to give away other peoples money. Get it done working people successfully avoid jury duty and leave it to people who weren't doing anything anyway.
He should let the lawyers win. He should fight this to the last penny if necessary. Have them go after the character of the little girl's grandparents. Obviously they have none if they are suing the victim of their son's crime. The are trying to steal from him also, using a courtroom.
You're attempting to create a false dilemma by making it sound like their options were far more limited then they actually were.
It was fine for them to be on their own property after dark, and holding someone at gunpoint was not the only alternative to shooting any intruders they saw.
Where they went wrong was using deadly force in questionable circumstances when it was absolutely clear that they didn't really have to. Deadly force is a last resort. If you obviously have other options then it's a very, VERY bad idea to shoot someone. That's whether you look at it from a legal standpoint, from a moral standpoint, or from a common sense standpoint.
It was fine for them to be on their own property after dark, and holding someone at gunpoint was not the only alternative to shooting any intruders they saw.
Where they went wrong was using deadly force in questionable circumstances when it was absolutely clear that they didn't really have to. Deadly force is a last resort. If you obviously have other options then it's a very, VERY bad idea to shoot someone. That's whether you look at it from a legal standpoint, from a moral standpoint, or from a common sense standpoint.
I seriously doubt that he gave in easily. Would you simply give up a quarter of a million dollars without a fight? Besides, unless he's a fairly wealthy person, my guess is he's already down to his last penny. He owes $270,000 besides his own legal bills.He should fight this to the last penny if necessary.
This indicates that the jury was anxious to just get out of there and back home. However, I have to agree with the jury, but see my comment below.From the news article:
The jurors declined to comment after the trial.
"It's been a long two weeks," one said before getting on an elevator.
Patriot, the guy was not in a home; there’s a difference.by Patriot86
Another example of our insane legal system. Thank god here in Illinois, if you shoot someone lawfully in your home you are somewhat shielded from lawsuits.
More comment by me:
Here in Texas it’s legal to shoot the BG if he’s running away with your TV on his shoulder, even out in the road. We may use lethal force to protect property. BUT, I’m not about to shoot someone who is no threat of injury or death to me, my family, or a third innocent person (that third person part can get real sticky, however). The BG was no threat of injury or death, or so goes the news article and I have no evidence to refute them with (nor will I go looking--it ain't my fight).
Also in Texas, if cleared of criminal charge you are cleared of civil charge. Some other states have the same law. But I’ll lay money that a shyster lawyer can figure a way around that in some cases.
Now to the money award:
Most states have remitur; a legal proceeding by which a judge can decide the jury over-did an award for damages.
A case to consider is the woman who sued McDonalds about the hot coffee; the jury awarded a couple of million, IIRC, but the judge reduced it to a couple hundred thousand. The media made a big deal about the millions but never mentioned the remitur, which came about quite some time later.
Before the case discussed here is over a judge just might reduce the award to a fraction. I don’t know if a judge can cancel all of the award, I don’t believe he can.
Why shoot someone over a couple of hundred bucks when it might end up costing you a couple of million?
youngunz4life
New member
clay you made some good points, but I do not think the road bit is legal as you are off your property. Are you sure about this? I thought someone in TX just got off but they Barely got off when they shot an intruder in the road...that instance was a fleeing intruder though.
Catfishman said:Get it done working people successfully avoid jury duty and leave it to people who weren't doing anything anyway.
Our legal system is built around the participation of interested citizens as jurors and people who "successfully avoid jury duty" are part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.
Were I on the jury, and were the facts as presented above, I would vote to convict.Soon after Starks left the store, the clerk went out and shot Starks several times as Starks tried to leave the scene on a bicycle,...
Killing someone is (near) slam-dunk justified only when in reasonable fear of life/great
bodily harm of yourself, others, your home or your business (as in arson/rampage).
Killing after the fact as was (apparently) done here during pursuit when that threat no longer
exists... Well, you're going to have to talk awfully fast, and worry about guys like me on the jury.
(Postscript: Times of post-disaster rampage and looting/looters would change the equation --
just so the gentle reader knows I haven't gone bunny-hugger soft here.)
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Isn't there legislation of some sort that disallows criminals or their families from profiting from the commission of a crime?
Not if they are the victim of the crime.
The guy was armed with a knife, technically he is not a threat until within arms reach.
Tangential to te thread but it has already been established that a man armed with a knife can, from a standstill, deliver a mortal wound to a target 21' away in 2-3 seconds. Technically an assailant with a knife is a threat, period.
This particular shooting looks bad though.
I've been taught that justification requires certain elements. The names may change, but the basic ideas (per Massad Ayoob) are:
Ability - the BG must have the ability to inflict death or great bodily harm;
Opportunity - the BG must be in a position where you could reasonably believe he could employ the aforesaid ability; and
Jeopardy - the BG must show manifest intent, via words or actions, that he intends to inflict death or great bodily harm.
In this case, the BG was running away. I don't think Jeopardy was in evidence, so I think it was a bad shoot.
Ability - the BG must have the ability to inflict death or great bodily harm;
Opportunity - the BG must be in a position where you could reasonably believe he could employ the aforesaid ability; and
Jeopardy - the BG must show manifest intent, via words or actions, that he intends to inflict death or great bodily harm.
In this case, the BG was running away. I don't think Jeopardy was in evidence, so I think it was a bad shoot.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Tangential to te thread but it has already been established that a man armed with a knife can, from a standstill, deliver a mortal wound to a target 21' away in 2-3 seconds. Technically an assailant with a knife is a threat, period.
This particular shooting looks bad though.
As MLeake noted, no intent or jeopardy. So the fact that he had a knife really isn't justification. If it takes 2-3 seconds from 21' with the guy running toward you, then how long does it take with the guy running away from you before he gets to you?
So the intent was lacking for using the knife and with each step, the opportunity to use it was diminishing.
FYI, the time is closer to 1.5 seconds from 21 feet. Even a slow, middleaged guy like me can cover the distance in less than 2 seconds.
See Tueller Drill for more specifics on the timing and distance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm