Burglar Shot Through Door

This is Florida

All you need to know is:

A man who police say was breaking into a home
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and:

Florida Statutes section 776.013 establishes the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes unlawfully into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm; therefore, a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.



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MLeake said:
Turned out some teenagers had a rollover car wreck in a rural area, where the houses were a mile apart. One kid was critically injured, and his friends were frantically trying to find a place where they could call 911.
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Unfortunate, to be sure, but it does NOT give them any legal right to break into a stranger's house. The homeowner might have regretted shooting them, but I doubt she would have faced any legal consequences.

In the bygone days when I was a teenager, if we needed to call for help we knocked on doors and asked whoever spoke from the other side to please call the police/ambulance/fire department/wrecker.
 
No, C0untZer0, that is NOT all you need to know, unless your only concerns are legal, and not moral.

In this particular case, the shooting should meet both standards. The decedent was in fact in the act of breaking into the house, with criminal tools.

But shooting at an unseen person pounding on a door, or even breaking a window, could result in shooting a rape victim who is trying to run from a pursuer; a firefighter, breaking into the wrong house (how many of us have seen that video on a reality show? Smoke was from one house over but appeared to be from the wrong one, and the firefighter got no response when he knocked; broke in the door, and found a confused - but reasonable and appreciative - little old lady); or, in the case the instructor mentioned last night, kids trying to make a critical 911 call to save a buddy who was bleeding out after a car wreck.

Such shoots might be found to have been legal; I don't think most of us would want to live with the aftermaths in our own heads, even if the legal system gave a pass.

Identify the target, or be prepared to live with the consequences of a wrong decision.
 
AB, in the situation the instructor described last night, your polite method would have resulted in a dead kid.

My guess is, if you were out with your child, and had a wreck in my neighborhood, which is also one where the neighbors are anywhere from half a mile to a mile apart, that you wouldn't just knock at my door and meekly give up while she bled in the wreckage.

My guess is, in such a case, if you broke in to use the phone because your cell was dead, you would hope I didn't shoot first, and figure things out later.

Of course, I'd probably be in the legal clear. But I'd feel extremely bad about it.

I've known people to commit suicide over less.

But if all you worry about is what the law will allow...

Edit: By the way, I'm pretty sure that the legal concepts that justify the use of deadly force, for self-defense, would also provide a free pass for breaking in to make an emergency call.
 
I don't know if I'd feel threatened by a guy outside my door with tools when a) I know he's there b) he doesn't know I'm there and c) I'm armed and waiting.

I do know burglarizing isn't worthy of the death penalty nor killing someone over. And that I like my front door...
 
Gehrhard, I am pretty sure I wouldn't shoot somebody for simple burglary, even in states where that is theoretically ok.

A burglar at my place better not carry a weapon, though, or that dynamic shifts.

But in the case in Florida, I would not expect an 82yo man to tussle with or attempt to detain a young, healthy male. If he had seen the guy breaking in, I would not fault him for opening fire.

I would fault him for shooting if the burglar were running away.

In this case, the shooting should be legal in Florida, and I hope the old man doesn't have any lingering issues over it.

But I am still very much opposed to shooting without identifying the target, or attempting to verify that a threat exists. (Not everybody we don't know is a threat.)
 
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I'm only 67, . . . not in my eighties as this elder statesman of the handgun community is, . . . and I have no qualms at all shooting someone through my door who has a hammer, . . . screwdriver, . . . is masked, . . . and attempting to break down my door. That was all listed in the description.

Course then again, . . . because of lighting I have in these areas, . . . I would be able to see all this, . . . and it didn't say he could see the perp.

But because of the probability of his being at least beat up, . . . it is in all probability that the disparity of force would have covered him if nothing else did.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
As far as I'm concerned a hammer or crowbar is enough of a weapon to shoot over. I do agree that shooting through a door is generally a bad idea. An 82 year old might shoot a little earlier, bring behind the reaction curve.

Tough to identify someone through a door, but we don't know all circumstances. Maybe he saw the guy through a window.
 
I myself would never shot at someone I couldn't see!!!! Never!

I would rather battle it out between me and a bad guy, and possibly lose my own life, before opening the door and find a dead innocent person or child!
 
It's my personal belief that you don't make it to 82 without a little gumption. I would guess he saw or at least heard something that led him to believe the dead would be robber was up to something nefarious. And with the laws in Florida the way they are, I would guess he knew his butt was covered.
 
I don't think any elected Proscuter, even in CA, NY or Ma would be stupid enough to charge an 82 year old man.
 
You,know,whats wrong here is to many laws.There all for the bad guy.The man had his tools ready to do a job,to me it doesn't make any difference how old the home ownen is,what 's he suppose do wait till he him gets shot in his own home.
 
Shooting through a door because you think someone has evil intent is in violation of at least one of the four immutable laws. You can't know the target and you can't really know your background. Warn him away, call police with a clear assessment of the situation, prepare to defend yourself if he enters, and kill him where he stands if he does; all reasonable responses IMO. I feel for the 82 year old man, but this was irresponsible if not illegal.
 
Actually, back in the 90's here in Nor Cal there was a similar shooting (drunk thought it was HIS house) in a local city. Homeowner shot through the door as the drunk tried to break it down, killing the drunk. It was a very unfortunate situation, but no charges were filed.
 
I'm pretty sure Florida's Castle Doctrine applies to any case in which an unauthorized person forcibly enters or is attempting to forcibly enter your home, occupied vehicle, etc. So this case is legally justified.

We could play the ethics game and dwell on hypotheticals and different examples all the live-long day. But the fact is, this burglar was attempting to force his way into a home he had no business being in, and the homeowner legally defended himself and his property. Case closed.
 
I would also council against having a drink to "calm your nerves" while waiting for the cops to show up. Really BAD idea. Don't do it.
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Our 'lustrous vice president Cheney did exactly that after he accidentally shot that lawyer in the face. (of course, he'd been drinking earlier that day before he went bird hunting...) It worked out really good for him.

We could play the ethics game and dwell on hypotheticals and different examples all the live-long day. But the fact is, this burglar was attempting to force his way into a home he had no business being in, and the homeowner legally defended himself and his property. Case closed.
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I'd rather wait until the door give way before shooting (less chance of something going wrong) but I don't judge the old guy for doing what needed to be done. Looks like it had a happy ending this time.
 
What makes everyone assume he couldn't see the burglar?

The news article doesn't say what kind of door it was, it might have been a glass sliding door, etc. Or he might have seen who it was some other way.

Old guy looks out, sees a guy with mask, gloves, screwdriver and hammer breaking in... game over for the burglar.

I really don't care anymore, people should be afraid of what might happen when they try to rob and steal.
 
Reminds me of a case some years back here in Texas. A well known local musician, who was suspected of being on illegal drugs but later confirmed to be on some new quit smoking medication, flipped out and pounded on his neighbors door. He was trying to bust in and the home owner fired a warning shot through the door. The problem was that the warning shot was aimed at a high point on the door but unbeknownst to the home owner the guy was over 6 feet tall and the bullet struck him in the head killing him.

The musicians name was Carter Albrecht who at one time played guitar for Eddie Brickel and the New Bohemians. He was very popular and had a solo album that was coming out expected to do very well. To this day no one knows why he flipped out and no charges were filed on the home owner as far as I can remember.
 
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