Bullet seating depth and Free Bore
- Thread starter BJung
- Start date
Nope. I shoot a ladder with 1 shot per bullseye to determine max pressure, velocity change per charge weight increment, velocity, and poi of each charge weight. Then with some SWAG, I select a charge to shoot 20 rounds and see how it groups for 20…..20 is 4 groups of 5 (separate bullseyes) mapped into one bullseye to determine the aggregate. Then if ok, I move on from charge weight for a while. If great, I run with it.
georgehwbush
New member
(We have different opinions about how many rounds make a "proper" group.) & (I always find one shot groups look the best. I prefer 25 shot groups to tell me my loads capability. After all, I want to know my probability of hit on shots 1-3, not my 3 shot group size. ) ^^
i prefer 7 one shot groups, "not for testing" but after you have everything squared away; one shot at range and come back tomarrow and do the same... for a week, then you will know what your rifle thinks your odds of a first round hit will be...
but as per squaring away everything, seating depth, is important, just not near as important as powder/charge 'i.e. timing' but changing the seating can "and often does" affect timing also.
there are several usable methods for finding the best seating depth for your combo, experiment and see which you like, then use it.
as noted by many already there is not magic unicorn for this question of what is proper seating depth. it is cartridge case/powder/charge/bullet/chamber/barrel/and usage specific.
i prefer 7 one shot groups, "not for testing" but after you have everything squared away; one shot at range and come back tomarrow and do the same... for a week, then you will know what your rifle thinks your odds of a first round hit will be...
but as per squaring away everything, seating depth, is important, just not near as important as powder/charge 'i.e. timing' but changing the seating can "and often does" affect timing also.
there are several usable methods for finding the best seating depth for your combo, experiment and see which you like, then use it.
as noted by many already there is not magic unicorn for this question of what is proper seating depth. it is cartridge case/powder/charge/bullet/chamber/barrel/and usage specific.
What would the point of that, be??
Do you plan to miss, a LOT??
Is it just a function check??
Providing your own cover fire??
Do you fear the walking dead?? or is it those "mostly peaceful protestors" who loot and burn private property??
The last Banzai charge I know of was back in 1945. Human wave attacks pretty much ended during the Korean Conflict, and those were faced by soldiers, not homeowners in the US.
Note a common thing with rioters in the US, when faced with armed resistance and a demonstratable willingness to shoot, the riot goes elsewhere.
There are, of course exceptions, but they are rather rare.
georgehwbush
New member
(...don't get "good" groups, but you almost always get "minute of game" groups.)
what means "minute of game" ... "minute of squirrel" ? we generally talk in terms that have a solid meaning. minute of angle is an actual measurement, as is miliradian </sp> but when talking about shooting game minute of squirrel baffles me. how does it compare to minute of angle ?
it appears that in most cases people have the attitude that medium to poor accuracy is just fine to shoot at living things with, but not good enough to shoot at paper with. to me that's up side down. it's "big at the little, and bottom at the top". it's like saying that you have more respect for the paper target than you do for the living target. surely that is not what you mean. is it?
edit; more thought. to me ok to pratice with and shoot for fun is 1.5 moa and ok to hunt game with is less than 1 moa.
if i am shooting paper or steel a poorly placed shot doesn't make anything crawl off and suffer.
i'm probably making a hill out of a mountain but, it has been grating me for a while now.
i don't mean to cause an issue here but i do want to know what is actually meant.
what means "minute of game" ... "minute of squirrel" ? we generally talk in terms that have a solid meaning. minute of angle is an actual measurement, as is miliradian </sp> but when talking about shooting game minute of squirrel baffles me. how does it compare to minute of angle ?
it appears that in most cases people have the attitude that medium to poor accuracy is just fine to shoot at living things with, but not good enough to shoot at paper with. to me that's up side down. it's "big at the little, and bottom at the top". it's like saying that you have more respect for the paper target than you do for the living target. surely that is not what you mean. is it?
edit; more thought. to me ok to pratice with and shoot for fun is 1.5 moa and ok to hunt game with is less than 1 moa.
if i am shooting paper or steel a poorly placed shot doesn't make anything crawl off and suffer.
i'm probably making a hill out of a mountain but, it has been grating me for a while now.
i don't mean to cause an issue here but i do want to know what is actually meant.
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What I mean when I say "minute of game" "minute of deer" etc is the accuracy required to put the bullet where it needs to go for a humane kill, at the range(s) you are going to shoot.
There's no question about it, to me, hitting a deer or elk in the "boiler room" at 2 or 3 hundred yards is a different matter than hitting a woodchuck at the same distance, and the people who shoot paper are after paper results, smallest group, winning the match, etc.
The people shooting game are after humane clean kills and while more accurate never hurts, accurate enough is what a hunter needs.
for me, its got nothing to do with any lack of respect for the game, its simply that a 2MOA deer rifle brings home the venison every time the shooter does their part properly.
That same rifle won't be as good for popping prairie dogs and is unlikely to win a shooting match, even when the shooter is at the top of their game.
There's no question about it, to me, hitting a deer or elk in the "boiler room" at 2 or 3 hundred yards is a different matter than hitting a woodchuck at the same distance, and the people who shoot paper are after paper results, smallest group, winning the match, etc.
The people shooting game are after humane clean kills and while more accurate never hurts, accurate enough is what a hunter needs.
for me, its got nothing to do with any lack of respect for the game, its simply that a 2MOA deer rifle brings home the venison every time the shooter does their part properly.
That same rifle won't be as good for popping prairie dogs and is unlikely to win a shooting match, even when the shooter is at the top of their game.
georgehwbush
New member
44AMP ok. on that one we can have a respectful disagreement, without it hurting anyone.
at least now i know for sure what you are saying when you say ( minute of "animal" )
thank you for the clarification.
where i would respectfully disagree is that 2moa is good enough for deer. to me all that does is shorten the effective range (i.e. max range for confidence of leathality). where 1moa would make one more confident at the same max range. imo for me good enough is not good enough unless i'm sure it will put the bullet where i want it. not some where in the chest but on the left eye/ear juncture or other choice spot depending on angle. but like i said thank you for clearing that up for me.
at least now i know for sure what you are saying when you say ( minute of "animal" )
thank you for the clarification.
where i would respectfully disagree is that 2moa is good enough for deer. to me all that does is shorten the effective range (i.e. max range for confidence of leathality). where 1moa would make one more confident at the same max range. imo for me good enough is not good enough unless i'm sure it will put the bullet where i want it. not some where in the chest but on the left eye/ear juncture or other choice spot depending on angle. but like i said thank you for clearing that up for me.
I respect your opinion, and agree with your reasoning, for you. For other people, other standards seem to work well enough.
First, I would point out that a 2MOA rifle means that, at most, bullet strike will be one inch away from point of aim, per hundred yards of range.
Next, is accuracy at range, specifically shorter ranges. What is needed for long range becomes essentially irrelevant at close range.
There are lots of places in the country where people use shotguns for deer. Some places even allow the use of buckshot. These are hardly precision weapons, but they are very effective and humane deer guns, within the limits of the gun, cartridge and shooter.
I grew up deer hunting in the Adirondacks, where a 100yd shot was an uncommon thing. There are a lot of woods all over the country where that is the norm, and long range accuracy isn't any more useful than what you get from a shotgun or iron sighted lever gun. It doesn't hurt anything, but its not required.
Friend of mine grew up hunting in much more open country in the west. TO him 200yds is "usual" and anything less is "short range" and under 100 he considers essentially "point blank".
Your standard is a good standard, works well about everywhere. I'm just pointing out that a lesser standard works just as well under the conditions where many other people hunt.
georgehwbush
New member
confirmed
When I was hunting my rifle was a 1.5 inch MOA (it simply would not shoot better even with hand loads). I only missed once and because I did not trust my sight in and held high. At a guess it was a 600 yard shot (I had the power for that but not the skill). Still creased the back, just not enough to hit the spine (post mortem it was amazing how close I was, also creased the front and at that point lead was a guess. Hate to think how that all played out data wise. Tiny amount and no creases or a good hit. Yea we got it, one of the worst hunts ever ethics wise. My brother blew its rear leg out with a shot and we tracked it from there. Desperate shot in the dark and found my brother had shot it through the horn. Yea, scope and dark do not mix. I had the better setup with a see under scope but he was in the lead at that point.
Longest sans that was 250 yards (rested) and a solid hit behind the shoulder on a moving animal (Caribou in that case).
My brother shot a moose in the head, it was his only view and he was good enough he could pull it off (I saw him hit a full on tilt running Caribou at 400 yards after he ran down the hill a good 100 yards to close the distance as much as he could before it was off 90 deg from him (moving left to right) and opening the range.
Target shooting my goal is 1/2 MOA. Lots of hunters admire that, but I tell them, hunting and target shooting are two different things with the same tool. I bet you get your animal every year? Yep.
I knew one guy who picked a section of woods and worked it until he found signs of a Moose and then he tracked it however intermittent those track were until he had its area of ops down.
I don't know how good a shot he was but he only had one year he did not get his moose, it ran in front of a random hunter as he was closing in a pure luck the other guy got it.
One thing you got to keep in mind, out past 250 yards regardless of the cartridge, you get a drop. Also wind plays a role. Out at 600 yards you may have a 20 inch drop.
So you then have a hold over or adjust a scope that is dialed in for doing that. And while the gun may be 1/2 MOA, can you shoot that without a bench?
All but the one shot was successful but all but that one had some kind of a rest. One was the classic knee and brace. Laying down on one, hood of the truck on another.
A lot of variables go into realistic what your MOA is hunting. On the bench you can control them all pretty well but not hunting.
Some places you know its a short shot, ergo the 30-30 Carbines in the East. Others it can be from short to long.
Longest sans that was 250 yards (rested) and a solid hit behind the shoulder on a moving animal (Caribou in that case).
My brother shot a moose in the head, it was his only view and he was good enough he could pull it off (I saw him hit a full on tilt running Caribou at 400 yards after he ran down the hill a good 100 yards to close the distance as much as he could before it was off 90 deg from him (moving left to right) and opening the range.
Target shooting my goal is 1/2 MOA. Lots of hunters admire that, but I tell them, hunting and target shooting are two different things with the same tool. I bet you get your animal every year? Yep.
I knew one guy who picked a section of woods and worked it until he found signs of a Moose and then he tracked it however intermittent those track were until he had its area of ops down.
I don't know how good a shot he was but he only had one year he did not get his moose, it ran in front of a random hunter as he was closing in a pure luck the other guy got it.
One thing you got to keep in mind, out past 250 yards regardless of the cartridge, you get a drop. Also wind plays a role. Out at 600 yards you may have a 20 inch drop.
So you then have a hold over or adjust a scope that is dialed in for doing that. And while the gun may be 1/2 MOA, can you shoot that without a bench?
All but the one shot was successful but all but that one had some kind of a rest. One was the classic knee and brace. Laying down on one, hood of the truck on another.
A lot of variables go into realistic what your MOA is hunting. On the bench you can control them all pretty well but not hunting.
Some places you know its a short shot, ergo the 30-30 Carbines in the East. Others it can be from short to long.
With handloading, I try to get as much as I can with my tool. My target load uses a 174 HPBT so I'm looking for accuracy despite the OAL. I wonder if various seating depths are like ladder tests shooting test loads of various charges where there are nodes. Would an extended bullet beyond the magazine enable a load to be accurate to have the first shot, that extended cartridge and any follow up being the load that is less accurate but fits in the magazine. I plan to test that with some 150gr SP.
Test away, but be aware that first, your results are only going to apply to your rifle.
Second, "accuracy" as usually defined, is about uniformity, and repeatability.
It is often the case where a gun will put one bullet in one place and when the rest are even slightly differently made, the bullets will go someplace else.
Its even been observed that different ways of chambering the ammo can make a difference in point of impact, and group size which is the usual way we measure accuracy.
Here's a suggestion, keeping every thing else as close to the same as possible, shoot a group using your "too long to fit in the magazine" loads, single loading them. Then shoot a group with just the first round being the long one, and the rest of them being magazine length. Then shoot a group with all rounds being magazine length. Compare results, then do it all again, next week and see if those results are consistent with the earlier ones. The results might be surprising, or might be what you expect, only the shooting will show you what your rifle, and your ammo will do.
Second, "accuracy" as usually defined, is about uniformity, and repeatability.
It is often the case where a gun will put one bullet in one place and when the rest are even slightly differently made, the bullets will go someplace else.
Its even been observed that different ways of chambering the ammo can make a difference in point of impact, and group size which is the usual way we measure accuracy.
Here's a suggestion, keeping every thing else as close to the same as possible, shoot a group using your "too long to fit in the magazine" loads, single loading them. Then shoot a group with just the first round being the long one, and the rest of them being magazine length. Then shoot a group with all rounds being magazine length. Compare results, then do it all again, next week and see if those results are consistent with the earlier ones. The results might be surprising, or might be what you expect, only the shooting will show you what your rifle, and your ammo will do.
georgehwbush
New member
(One thing you got to keep in mind, out past 250 yards regardless of the cartridge, you get a drop. Also wind plays a role. Out at 600 yards you may have a 20 inch drop.)
yeah or over six feet in most cases.
yeah or over six feet in most cases.
If you are on Earth, the acceleration due to gravity is approximately 32 feet per second, per second. "Drop" begins the instant the bullet leaves the barrel, and it is constant.
Drop doesn't wait until 250yds to kick it, it starts the instant the bullet exits the barrel. Sighting systems take this into account, and it is the effect of gravity that creates the ballistic arc.
Only the very fastest shooting rounds, using the best long range bullets drop less than 6 feet by the time they get to 600 yards. And, its not a lot less than 6 feet.
Just for comparison, the standard GI .30cal 150gr ball ammo, when zeroed at 100yds drops about 8.5 feet at 600yds. And your .30-30 with a 150gr RN drops nearly 3 feet at 300 yds.