Bullet Penetration

Similar threads have debated this to death

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386021&highlight=penetration

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408646&highlight=penetration

I guess it comes down to this, what is your comfort level? Do feel better knowing that the bullet went clean through.... with lightning speed.... making a silver dollar exit hole? Would you rather the mushroomed bullet came falling out of the hide when you skin the deer indicating that you expended 99% of the energy in the animal?

I have shot deer both ways and they haven't gone far or at all in both cases. I have lost deer....hate to do it but, it happens. One was with a bow. One with a crossbow. One with a shotgun. I have also killed three wounded deer so, I consider myself even. In all cases, it wasn't the fault of the broadhead or the slug, it was my mistake in the field. Bullet expansion, velocity, weight retention, and energy will never......I'll repeat myself....NEVER trump shot placement.
 
You are correct. Shot placement is key no matter what your using, if you can't get it dont take the shot. Most of us who have hunted alot sooner or later wounds a deer. It happens, but we try hard for it not to happen. I myself have shot a few wounded deer that normally I would not have. Being wounded I finished it. I do like a pass thru with good bullet expansion, and staying together. Most the time drops on the spot or will leave a real good blood trail.
 
If I am positive on my guns accuracy capacity being a "tight" shooter, I would slap blow the head off a deer to avoid any meat loss...

Otherwise I try to spare the front hams by shooting behind the shoulder...

I have a paralyzed buddy who puts his .308 bullet right in the center of the shoulder...

He says "I know I am losing most or all of one ham but I can't wheelchair into the thick woods bloodtrailing a deer."

He and I use the same basic copper jacketed HP in over the counter weights like 160-170 grainers...

As for my buddy... He is right... "No deer runs good with a tripod setup..." His deer make a total of 30-40 yards of over land travel but it is usually in a 50 foot circle or so...:D
Brent
 
I grew up with a friend that shot nosler partitions and if memery serves me we looked for lots of died deer. Always died just not were it was shot. I also in the early days use a 308 norma load that was a pass-thru type bullet, shot both as a double lung and to brake a shoulder, good expantion and at times i could see the blood spray on exit but had to hunt up those died deer. Most all could run 25 to 50 yards and that don't sound like much . Sometimes that would be open ground but more often it was small planted pines or swamp bottoms and you could be next to the deer sometimes and not see it. Thats when i changed to a rapid expantion bullet. First the nosler BT then the sst in the 7mm mag. I have not had a deer run in 20 years. One step or two and down. I do watch my placement as if i was shooting a bow and work at knowing the distance . Nothing worse than a bad shot and have a deer stumble off and have to shot again. Still can hear a deer bleet at me from 25 years again from a bad shot. All part of learning to be a good hunter.
 
Brent, there ain't no "always" on this tripod stuff. I heard a shot and a hit, one time. I wandered over to see what had been shot. It turned out that a guy had crippled the buck but wasn't going after it. The mountains were too rough for him and his buddies.

Okay, so away I go. Lemme tell you, a mule deer with a broken hind leg can go up a fairly-steep mountain faster than I can. I first had to circle around about a half-mile just to get to where the buck had been shot, to pick up the blood trail. After about 3/4 mile of going uphill, I gave up. I never could get ahead of him. I did almost have a shot, once. The brush was thick enough that I lost sight real quick. Anyhow, he topped out and I figured I was done for the day. Lion bait...
 
There is no doubt about it you need shot placement. If you have that it is going down period. I dont care if you have a .243 or a 30-06. If you hit a deer in the vitals it will die. The trouble is when somone should pass on a shot, and they dont. My wife has dropped them on the spot with .243, and she let bigger one's walk, she was afraid to wound one. Gave her lots of credit for a first time hunter. I use a 06, and a wounded deer is wounded no matter what you shot it with. Every year someone will seek me out to track down a deer for them. If and when I do find them it was do to poor shooting. Then they realize the work dragging out that it is going to take, and I am there for that to. Has soon has they start wondering about it, I tell them get gutting, and lets get going. I do believe in lots of practice, and being a reloader I get to shoot alot more than most, try differnt bullets, and other components. Being were we live and hunt most the time you do not have time to use a tripod or rest. But most not all are real close shots. Shooting alot will build your confidence when you know you will be dead on when you make that shot. I used to be a little reserved about the .243, but got one for the wife. She practiced alot. Maybe 500 shots or so before season, and I was able to make up a really good load. You could see the confidence in her. I then got to see what a .243 could do with deer, and good shot placement. I was impressed, and would not hesitate to use one with the correct bullet anytime.
 
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Just wanted to add if your friend is using a Nosler Partition, and your tracking "all" the deer he shot something is wrong. If he is using a good caliber for deer, and there are lots of them I would say he needs to do some more shooting. If you hit a deer in the vital's with a .243 or up into a .30 cal it is a dead deer. It may run a little bit but not far. I am also not saying the partition is the only good bullet for deer, with the correct caliber in the vital's it is going down. I hear people say they shot a deer right thru the heart, and it ran 200 yards makes me think do you really know were the heart is? Must be those super stong deer they got messed up with.
 
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Amen, James. The only deer I ever had to track that far was a doe I hit high and 8" behind the shoulder, with a .44/300/XTP at a clocked 1310 fps. Dang thing goosed on me just as I dropped the hammer on her shoulder-from an embarrassing 28 yards-and shooting from a rest over my knees!

Lotsa blood, long trail, easy tracking and a few curse-words directed at self & Mr. Murphy along the way. The doe, against all conventional wisdom, was excellent eating.
 
Bullets

I started in the late 70's with a .243 Winchester 670...and took 20+ deer with the common K-Mart/Wal Mart silver box and green box ammo. It was great. Later on in the 80's...bullets started blowing up and failed to penetrate well. I figured they were thinner jackets since I did not hit the shoulder bone or spine.

After having to track 3 deer up to 100 yds...hunting partners convinced me to move up in caliber and bullet weight. I started using the .270 130 grn stuff and the deer never went past 20 yds. Recoil is not a problem...so I was happy.

When I mentioned the problem a couple of years ago...I was chastised for not buying premium ammo for my .243! That was a little late, I had given the 670 away. If I find a nice .243...I will try the premium bullets...I did recently pick a Rem. Mohawk in 6mm for the wife, but have not stared loading for it yet.

I have had a shoulder and arm rebuilt due to cancer...the dr says I will be able to hunt this year...but the darn thing is so tender I may shoot left-handed or find a .243. Funny how the world turns.
 
The SCDNR did a study at a private hunt club and the results were that after about 500 kills, fast expanding "non premuim" bullets resulted in quicker kills and shorter recoveries. The 6mm and quarterbores were just as effective as larger calibers.
I believe youre better off expending as much energy as possible inside the animal. Nosler Ballistic Tips and Hornady SST's are hard to beat on medium game. The 129 Gr SST has worked very well for me out of my .260 Remington.
 
Thats why I use the Partition does that, and still stays intact with the pass thru. Expands about perfect and hold together. Works the best with my wifes .243. Made me a beliver with deer the correct bullet, and its a done deal. I would rather shoot a deer with a Partition than a B.T. with a .243 anyday.
 
james r burke My friend who is now die used a weatherby in 7mm rem mag with a rem 700 ,same caliber and shot it for 30 years atleast. Just got turn off crawl'n around under 5 to 6 foot pines or in a clear,ha, bottom or swamp look'n for a died deer. maybe they only ran 50 feet may 20 but not in the open died. He was a snap shot master. made good hits on running game and when the shot allowed a neck would drop them but that didn't happen often. I started hunting with him at 14 years old when he was around 30 till he died. Shot 100s of deer and a few elk. I got spoiled when i started shooting nosler BT's and then in my 7mm sst's Still use ballistic tips's in the 308 I have not in the all the years that i have used these bullets had to (find a deer). I am not a great shooter, i take to much time judgeing my shot sometimes and have had clean and close miss's. But have killed enough deer threw the decades to know that i will not change for deer. I come out of recoil and no running deer. Now elk? that is where I shoot barnes x and shot for the shoulders but will take a mule deer if it gives the shot with the X. Starting now to be much more shotgun along with the bow as some states we all know don't like rifles.
 
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2 questions

Seems like the OP's have 2 questions: bullet performance and shot placement on deer. As we went to deer pretty quick, I think we can assume bullet performance on deer, and shot placement on deer.

Deer come in different sizes, depending on geography, and can range from deer right around 100 lbs, to animals nearly 3 time that. So I suppose for whitetails, we can take 150 lbs as average. That is not a particularly big or tough critter. Folks kill them regularly and cleanly with bows and muzzleloaders. I believe many folks are over gunned for deer, and carry the big blasters to make up for poor shot placement, which is folly. A gut shot or broken leg is same same, be it magnum or .243.

A "fragmenting bullet" for game over varmint size is a poor idea. Say varmint size is under 100 lbs. On anything bigger you risk bullets not getting to, or damaging the vitals enough to effect a clean, quick, or trackable kill. Similarly, a varmint bullet, even in a reasonable caliber, is another bad idea, for the same reason. Game bullets intended for "deer" size animals are of a controlled expansion variety, not the frag variety.

Ideally, one will place the bullet precisely, at the correct angle, and gain a quick kill. But things happen, angles change, big bones get in the way, and suddenly you need more penetration than the "frag " bullet can deliver.

But all this discussion of bullet types is nearly moot, as it only applies to the "minimal" dual role deer ctgs for the most part. If one is shooting such a ctg (.223, 243, 6mm, possibly .250 .257, etc.) one needs to pay attention to bullet types. Their dual role puts many "frag" varmint bullets in the market.

The more traditional deer ctgs (.270 and up) are all nearly most commonly found with "big game" bullets, and will drive through our typical 150 lb bambi just fine with anybody's std soft point, for the most part. There are exceptions (a 110gr .270, for example, a 125 gr. .30) but they are not common.

I would shoot premo bullets at the big, 250 lb deer of the farm land and far north.

Where to shoot'em? I coached bamaboy this way: on a broadside deer, standing flatfooted, trace a line up the forleg, to the center of the shoulder.
A slightly muffed shot here will still pick up vitals, high low, left or right.

On a quartering away deer, same heighth, but imagine driving the bullet behind one shoulder, and ahead of the other. vice-versa on a deer quartering to. Our style of hunting allows selective shots, and we avoid quartering ones if we can.

I am absolutely opposed to head shots, having seen deer with snouts and jaws wrecked get away after attempted same. The head neck is a small target, and the most movable on the deer.
 
Just go to bullets companies site read up on each bullet design. If you have questions contact them and get an answer. Most any oll standard will do the job if a pass through is what you want. The New Nosler ballistic tips and the sst's are not explosive as they use to be an in the heavier and somewhat larger calibers work well. They work just as well on 100lb deer as 300lbs but like has been cover . Be ethical enough and practiced enough to not take a shoot that does not offer a great chance of a quick kill. Hard to let deer walk by nothing sucks more than to hear a deer bleet after a shot or thrash about .
 
Personally, I really like the Nosler Accubond.

Expansion and accuracy is somewhat similar to their Ballistic Tip performance.

Penetration and weight retention is similar to their Partition performance.

Best of both worlds. Now if I could just find some to load up in my .308...
 
If those B.T.'s are working good for you great. I load them for a freind in a 7mm mag. The new ones for the bigger calibers have a thicker jacket I hear that keeps them together better. I myself like the Partitions. I like seeing them drop and dirt come up when there head hits the ground, or corn. Then wait about ten minutes, and fill the doe tag.
 
ballistic tips

When the ballistic tips came out, I kept hearing from buddies, that they we're the most destructive, killing bullet of all time. One was shooting the lighter 7mm bullet (140?) in a 7 mag and I saw 6-8 carcasses. Devastating.

So after a few years, when bamabpoy came on the scene, and I started gun hunting a bitmore w/ him,and bowhunting a bit less, I retired my grandad's rifle, and bought a working centerfire for myself, and chose a M700 in .270, and went w/ BT for a .270 load, 130 grain. Man, they were accurate. Best bullet to date in my Wally World .270.

But I did not get the dramatic kills and expansion that my buddy did in his 7 mag. The halfdozen or so deer I shot with the combo, from 19 yds to appx 225, acted just like any other rifle hit deer, and the wounds were pretty common in appearance. I could understand the longer shots having lower velocity, thus less damage, but the deer up close I figured would display greater wounding.

Pretty small sample, but I figured Nosler had thickened up the jackets and reduced expansion, from what we had been seeing when the slug first appeared on the market. The bullet is still accurate, and I keep some loaded up because they shoot so well.

I did start a search for a bullet that offered more expansion. Our deer avg 125-145 lbs, some less. That is not a very tough animal. Bamaboy has killed several w/ .223 and .243, and 7.62x39, and I've taken to gun hunting w/ .44 mag carbine and x39 as well in thick cover. But for the food plots and ROW's, (longer range) I've come up w/ a rather unorthodox approach, w/ what is reputed to be a light, but tough, .270 slug, (115) but have not shot any deer w/ it. (did miss a nice one!) Our hunting from shooting houses on food plots and ROW's allows for selective shots, and bamaboy has been doing all the shooting lately w/ different rifles.

He's big enough now, I may turn him loose w/ the .270-115 this year and will give a report upon his anticipated success when same occurs.
 
I use a 300WM for hunting most game. For Deer, I use 150gr sierra hpbt loaded with x grains of IMR4350, chrono at 3322avg. Shot placement for me is just barely behind sholder and halfway down. My target is the lungs just above the heart. Lungs and heart are almost always destroyed to to hydrostatic shock and fragmentation (bullet and rib bone). Bullets have always passed through (out to 400yds) Exit wounds have been between the size of a 1/2 dollar to one that was larger than a fist.

It isnt often that you get an exact broadside shot, but knowing where you want the bullet to pass will determine POI. It works great for me. I havnt had to go more than 20 yards from where the deer was shot in over 30 years.
 
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