Bullet Penetration

M

mitchell koster

New member
Hi all,

Sorry if this in the wrong place TFL staff.

When I choose a bullet (bullet being the whole powder, shell and projectile) should I be looking for a set up that has enough power to break up when it impacts and then continue through the body(Through to the other side of the animal)? Or should it hit the animal and break up, then not exit the body?

I'm quite new to how bullet ballistics work and i'm interested to learn as much as possible.

Thanks all, and be safe.

<MK;)
 
Might want to post in the Hunt forum. I'm sure they can give you lots of good advice on ammunition and firearms types that are good for various game.

You want the bullet to penetrate through the skin and bones and reach the vitals of the animal. A bullet that passes all the way through the animal is less efficient.
 
I think it depends a little on what you are hunting. When I hunt deer sized stuff I'm not as concerned with penetration so much ...they are small, and a Ballistic Tip type bullet will always do the job (if you do yours).

But for elk or moose, I pick a heavy bullet that will expand slower because I want maximum penetration. By and large, you WANT the bullet to exit, particularly with the larger game animals. They are easier to track with pass-through shots, and they are big and you want your bullet to impact as much organ material as possible.

Sure, you can kill an elk by destroying one lung, but you'd rather destroy both of them, and maybe a heart and/or shoulder as well. I've seen guys with sucking chest wounds. It's a critical wound, but survivable if only one lung is hit. Mess up both lungs and it's over. (May God bless all corpsmen [and medics])
 
Seems like I stumbled across an old Wolfe Publishing mag article "Terminal Sectional Density"
It made an interesting case,backed up by gel tests.The very rapid expanding bullets create impressive wound channels for a short distance,much of it related to high velocity,but the wound channel soon becomes very small as the projectile LOSES MOST OF ITS VELOCITY!

the more controlled expansion bullets,if the nose opens up just some,for a good flat point,maintains sufficient velocity as it drives deep,even, through,to create a large dia deep wound channel.There are wound channel advantages to maintaining high velocity with deep penetration.
 
You want to knock the biggest hole you can, all the way through your animal, regardless of what that bullet encounters along the way. Many bullets can do this but none can accommodate every possibility you may encounter.

The good news is that conventional bullets will do a good job of this so long as you don't overmatch your cartridge to the game sought, or choose a bullet to light too hold together if it hits bone.

You can also choose one of the deep penetrating, controlled expansion bullets as well.

Regardless, you still need to shoot well and only when you are certain of making a killing shot. No bullet will compensate for a failure in those areas.
 
Very Good Point

You've made a good point there. It only take a badly placed shot to only wound an animal. That leads on to my next question I think.

Where is the most reliable shot placement when using a .270 to .308 caliber when Shooting deer? I have heard that head shots are unreliable because of the small target, neck shot (doesn't take out many vitals). or chest shot ( if placed right will take out lungs, heart, front hips)?

Where do you place your shots remembering tat we're looking for the most reliable kill rate?

Will a chest shot give an instant kill?

Thanks MK
 
Mitchell I have either killed or witnessed the killing of maybe 40 deer, with everything from service pistol calibers (above 9mm) through the classic bigbore revolvers, centerfire rifles from .223 through 45-70. Oh, 12 and 20 gauge slugs, too.

FWIW the only 'instant kills' I have seen have been when the bullet destroyed the spine at the shoulder- as in 'wrecked it' and sailed on through. Didn't matter if it was a 240 grain .44 SWC at 1000 fps, 150 grain softpoint from a 30-30 at over 200 yards- or a 175 grain softpoint from a long-barreled 7mm Mauser. Didn't matter if the deer were standing still or in a flat-out sprint. Bang. Flop. Skid.

Shots that took out the shoulder bone (front of the shoulder on whitetail) anchored them almost as fast, though a finishing shot was sometimes required. Broadside heart shots generally elicited about a 20 yard trot followed by a flop.

Worst shot I ever made was on a doe that goosed just as I pressed off a 300 grain .44 XTP at 1350 fps, and it landed about halfway down the back under the spine. That one was a 250 yard tracking job with a dead deer at the end.

40(?) deer is not a lot by 'serious hunter' standards and I'm sure there are folks here who have seen more. It has been enough for me to have formed some opinions of what kind of bullet needs to go where.
 
Sarge, thanks for lending your experience! Good post.

I'm surprised nobody has made an online database where people can record their hunting kills... catagorized by animal, distance, bullet weight, approximate muzzle velocity, impact point and terminal effects... given 5 or 10 seasons worth of data you could really create an interesting picture (with admittedly low confidence) of what rounds people are using and what is most effective.
 
Some of the BEST data on penetration has been well documented by both amateur and professional testers. A very interesting article describing 35 Remington performance is advised. Speer's 180 grain flat nose out penetrates any 200 grain bullet while ripping a wider wound channel. Whether one needs this bullet for deer is debateable but it is easily the BEST choice for much larger animals.

For deer, common soft tip ammo by Remington, FEDERAL, Winchester, and others will get the job done nicely. Whether the bullet remains inside or exits is largely irrelevant if the animal expires quickly.

Jack
 
I may be the odd one on bullet design. I have used expandable copper)BarnesX) and do like them on heavier or dangerous game but for deer i only shoot bullets had offer rapid expantion like a nosler ballistic tips and hornady's SST. I have not had a deer move more than 2 steps after being hit in the last 14 years. Some did hit the spine but most were shout right behind the shoulder. In my 308 i have the BT in 125gr and 7mm mag only 139 or 140gr. Only the spine shots could be called pass-thru shoots. Maybe 30 deer shot with them. Now adays more bow and slugs than rifles.
 
I was reloading the Nosler B.T. in a 7mm mag for a friend. He had me make up a new one with the Nosler Partition. Says he really likes it. But on the other hand he did get everything he shot with the B.T.'s so they worked great also.
 
The PC term is round or cartridge. There are people on gun forums that get real picky about that.


Basically for medium sized game such as deer, any modern expanding bullet will do the job. So whatever shoots best out of your rifle is the best choice.

The best bullet in the world is not as important as a trained hunter. So do yourself a favor and send about 500 rounds down range before you go into the woods.
 
I've mostly used a .243 and an '06 in my deer hunting. Generally, the .243 when I expected sorta-close shots inside 200 yards. I was picky about my shots since I always used the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. Only neck shots or cross-body heart/lung shots. No angling shots, as I didn't really trust the penetration capability. That bullet always turned the heart/lungs into a double handful of mush. I don't recall any of the 20+ deer ever moving from the spot.

I used the '06 more often for when I figured on maybe long-range, Ma Bell shots. 150-grain Sierras. Neck shots when inside of 200 yards. Heart/lung, otherwise. Mostly DRT--Dead Right There. Bang, whop, plop.

Funny, thiinking back on it all. I guess I've had more coyotes spin around or run a short distance than I've had any deer keep moving at all. Odd.

Anyhow, when Bambi's lying where he was shot, I don't figure it matters if the bullet exits or not.
 
I used that Sierra 150 for years, Art. I ran it at about 2900 from the 30-06 and it is a heck of a good bullet. Some years back I shot a fat little doe standing in front of big cottonwood tree, at about 140 yards. It was a perfect broadside heart shot and I later picked the jacket out of the bark of that cottonwood. The bullet had expanded to within a quarter inch of the base and blown a silver-dollar size hole on exiting. What was left of her heart would have fit in a shot glass. Can't ask for much more than that.

Funny thing is that the doe was unimpressed... she sauntered off 25 yards, jumped a five-strand fence and hit the ground like a wet dishrag- dead as a hammer.

The longer I hunt, the more I am convinced that the things we are hunting don't read ballistics charts ;)
 
Did not know about the P.C. round or cartridge thing, nor have I heard anyone complain. Sounds kind of knit picky. Like in the service it was a rifle or weapon. Never ever a gun. If you used the word gun you were doing some serious push ups with that rifle. You said bullet twice in your post should'nt you have said round? Or I am I missing something here.
 
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Aw, well, for any newbies on the learning curve: A cartridge is composed of 1) the cartridge case; 2) the primer; 3) the powder charge inside the case, and 4) the bullet.

If the ammunition is contained in a detachable box-like device, the device is a "magazine". That's derived from the word usage for a secure room for storage of gunpowder and such; a "powder magazine" in the old days.

If the ammo is held by a springy little dealie which holds the rims or the back part of the cartridge case, that's a "clip".

For reasons totally unknown to me for some sixty or more years, people get emotional over any misuse of the two terms. Nothing wrong with explaining the difference, but the amount of emotion for some strikes me as rather sophomoric. I figure that the old saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar," applies: Good teachers avoid scorn and snark.

Folks might note that I do not give prizes nor awards for "Snark Of The Day".

Not even to myself. :D:D:D
 
Mitchell Try to read up on just the bullets at different manucture's site and you can start to under stand how different designs work. The power of a 270 and 308 are going to be the same across the board, it's all bullet design and placement. Both the 270 and the 308 will kill just fine on deer. The 270 shoots a bit flatter at long distance and the 308 can carry a heavier bullet . Does not really matter except you could get a shorter rifle with a 308. What kind of areas are you going to hunt. I shoot both a 308 and 7mm rem mag. Both work great at 20' out to 300 yards but the 7mm like a 270 is a bit flatter and faster out to 400 yards . That my limit. Old remington corelok have been around for decades and still works well as does the latest design's. Just learn to make a good shot placement and the deer ain't going far. Oh the old 30-30 has killed more deer than anything, is it still the best? Maybe for under 150 yards. Bullet design,, oll soft point at slower speeds.
 
I dont even know who it was directed at just thought it was a bit nit picky. If you are refering to myself I do reload, and a fair amount not has much as some of you folks. I do know what a cartridge is, and what it is composed of. Pretty hard to reload and not knowing that. What is political about it? I am glad I now know what a magazine is three years in the Army, and reloading, and I finally got it. I guess that would not apply to my single shots. Folks that know me know I also dont give out anything for being the pudley for a day. But I do for myself.
 
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