Bullet ogive ?

06shooter, you want to be consistent with measuring ogive to rim?

I think you're overly concerned about a cartridge dimension that in reality, is not super critical for even the most accurate shooting known to man. While it's easily measured and the numbers may seem big, in reality they're way too small to make any measureable difference in accuracy.

If you shoot a single few-shot group with one dimension set up, then change it .005" and shoot another few-shot group, the odds of that .005" change making a difference are very small. You'll see the same difference in group sizes across 10 other few-shot groups with the same setting on your seater die.

The only way to get the same bullet jump distance to the origin of the rifling for every shot is to size cases with minimal neck tension on seated bullets, then seat bullets out far enough that they're set back into the case neck as they are pressed into the origin of the rifling. Jump distance is always "zero" when that happens.

Anytime there's a space between the bullet and where it first touches the rifling, it won't be exactly the same for every shot fired. One other variable with bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulder is shoulder setback. That happens when the firing pin drives the case shoulder hard into the chamber shoulder. What happens is exactly the same when sizing a fired case in a full length sizing die. The case shoulder gets set back and that moves the bullet a few thousandths inch closer to the rifling before the round fires. The slight shoulder angle and smaller shoulder area of the .30-06 case compared to others lets it often set back .005" from firing pin impact.

You can easily measure that, Disable a primer with a drop of oil, seating it in an empty case, then measure the case headspace with a suitable gauge. Then chamber that primed case in your rifle and shoot it; the primer will not fire but the force of the firing pin slams the case hard into the chamber shoulder. Extract that case then measure its headspace. Note the difference from before it was fired. Example; 2.049" before then 2.045" after which is a .004" difference. That difference is how far the bullet gets moved forward in the chamber before its fired.

I've never been concerned about that .004" spread in such stuff with my .308 Win. match rifles. Therefore, I don't think it matters with someone's .30-06.
 
^^^^^^^
I like it, Bart

Corollary offshoot from a live primer....

Everyone talks about primer backout as a measure of headspace, but that's
the first time I've heard someone think about how it might not be indicative.

Does the firing pin strike actually set the shoulder back that significant amount...
and therefore primer backout is not a measure of excess headspace (?)
 
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Ditto the Hornady OAL Gauge. It is equally precise on setting up total cartridge
lengths for specifc bullet in specific rifles.

-CENSORED--CENSORED-
I was wanting to know if the bullet comparator bushing was reliable for .308.

Mr. Bart , from your last post , I learned something new. Thanks !

What is the diameter for .308 in a barrel ( lands across one another) ? Forgive me for not knowing how to ask correctly!
 
mehavey:
Does the firing pin strike actually set the shoulder back that significant amount...

and therefore primer backout is not a measure of excess headspace?
Yes, the firing pin does that. Do you own tests as I described.

Primer back out happens virtually all the time. It gets pressed back in when peak pressure pushes the case back against the bolt face. I've shot reduced loads in 308 Win cases more than 10% below max and extracted cases have their primers backed out several thousandths as well as case headspace being shortened a few thousandths more than normal. Further reduction of loads ends up with the primer sticking out even more. Increase the loads back to maximum and the primer gets reseated deeper. Interesting. Fascinating. I did 1 grain reduction increments in .308 Win. charge weights from 44 grains of IMR4064 under Sierra 168's all the way down to 35 grains. At 39 grains, ejected cases had primers protruding past the case head and fired case headspace was less than before firing. At 35 grains, primers stuck out almost .007." This was with Federal nickel plated cases; very slippery compared to bare brass ones whose shoulders didn't set back quite as far; .002" to .003" per pin smack.

06shooter:
What is the diameter for .308 in a barrel ( lands across one another) ?
That diameter is the bore diameter shown in the SAAMI picture above for the .30-06 case. .300" is normal.

One other thing I forgot to mention that adds another variable to the actual bullet's jump distance to the lands. With the full length die sizing down a fired case, the distance from the case head to the shoulder will vary a few thousandths. That's a normal spread caused by a combination of the lube on the case and how much spring the press has. So, even though a bunch of cases have their bullets seated to an exact distance from their ogive back to the case head, that spread in head to shoulder dimension (case headspace) will have a few thousandths spread. The distance from the case shoulder to that point on the bullet's ogive will have that same few thousandths spread. Measure a bunch of sized cases and see what the spread is.

When the round fires, it's hard against the chamber shoulder and that spread changes the bullet's jump to the rifling whatever its amount is. The end result is, with all the variables at hand, an exact distance from head to bullet point ends up with a few to several thousandths spread in the bullet's actual jump to the rifling.

The reality of all of this is, if you want the most consistent bullet jump to the rifling, the reference point on the bullet must be equidistant from a reference point on the rimless bottleneck case shoulder. How far away the case head doesn't matter; it'll vary a small amount.
 
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This is kinda' off topic , but something I noticed , I was experimenting with different bullets in .308 with my oal gauge to see the differences in ogive shapes and
to see the different measurements .

I had two bullets that wouldn't fit in the modified case , a Hornady interlock 150 gr. and a fusion 150 gr.
Everything else I have fits fine.

These two measured .309- .310 "
I was thinking this might have something to do with the accuracy problem and much sharper recoil from these two bullets when I was shooting for groups one day before dear season ?


Thank you for the last reply , very helpful .
 
How do you calibrate calipers ?

If they are off , there is still the problem for why they wouldn't fit in the modified case.
 
Call a local machine shop and ask them if they have reference gauges to calibrate thimble adjusted mechanical micrometers and calipers. Some may do it for you free. Most of the mechanical ones allow the thimble or dial to be set to the gauge number so it's accurate.

Digital ones are different and are zeroed when closed but need to be checked against a gauge to verify their accuracy.
 
I don't think you'll hurt the integrity of the barrel. Oversize bullets get swaged down to groove diameters when they're fired. Undersized ones get upset to groove diameter; evidenced by .3075" diameter 7.62 NATO M80 ball ammo bullets being shot in barrels with a .3084" groove diameter having copper wash/fouling in the grooves' bottoms.

If you note in the SAAMI drawing, bullet diameter specs are .309" -.003". But larger diameter ones usually need a grain or more less powder than smaller ones to keep peak pressure the same.

I've shot .3092" diameter bullets in barrels with a .2980" bore and .3075" groove diameter with about one grain less powder than .3082" bullets used inthe same barrel. Excellent accuracy, too.
 
The 308 bushing is fine for measuring to a standard reference/diameter point on the ogive --
after establishing your desired standoff using the OAL tool. (or any other method you choose)

The bushing's diameter doesn't have to be "exact" (though it's pretty much so), since all you're
doing is measuring to the same reference diameter every time.

This. You are measuring a specific point for that particular setup - it is somewhat arbitrary, but so long as you are measuring the same arbitrary points you are getting consistent measurements that you can use.
 
06Shooter,

I think the basic thing you are missing is the difference between a comparator and an absolute measuring tool of some kind. A comparator just compares two things so you can tell what the difference between them is, not what their absolute lengths are. You don't need to find a particular diameter on the bullet to do that; just one that's close enough to land diameter to be as consistent as the bullets are made, which is usually plus or minus several thousandths, anyway.

SAAMI cares about absolute measurements because the ammo made to their manufacturing standard has to fit all the guns out there with that chambering that the ammo manufacturer has never seen. But your ammo only has to fit your gun, and you have your gun, so you get to check its fit individually. For that purpose all you need to know is how much deeper your loaded bullet is seated than the one in the adapter case was when it was pushed out by the gauge to touch the lands of the rifling. So you zero the caliper on the the bullet in the gauge adapter that was touching the lands, then put the comparator over your loaded round to see that it is the number of thousandths shorter that you wanted to load to. What the absolute distance from the head may be does not matter to you.

It is correct that calipers, unless good quality and in experienced hands, can make a measuring error of a thousandth or two pretty easily due to beam flexing. If you want to check one, most any machine shop will have a pin gauge set. These are hardened and centerless ground steel pins, typically made to stated diameters within two tenths of a thousandth of an inch. Whether the two tenths are over or under depends on whether it is a "plus" or a "minus" pin gauge set, respectively. It will say somewhere on the box if not on the gauge itself.

For measuring barrel slugging and bore diameters even a good quality caliper really isn't adequate for most people's skill level with measuring tool feel. I recommend you get an OD thimble micrometer with 0.0001" resolution for that. Some come with standards you can check, but even the inexpensive ones are usually within a quarter thousandth, so it's a better way to roll.
 
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