Bullet Frontal Area Misconception
- Thread starter CSI
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Here is a better question.
You just got shot COM, put a half inch hole in your lung which instantly collapses and starts to hemmorage.
Next in line is your pericardium, just missing the heart, severe blunt force trauma to your right ventricle which goes arythmic.
Upon coming to rest against your spinal colum the force puts your nerves into shock and you lose all funtion from your belly button down.
DO YOU CARE WHAT THE FRONTAL AREA IS?
You just got shot COM, put a half inch hole in your lung which instantly collapses and starts to hemmorage.
Next in line is your pericardium, just missing the heart, severe blunt force trauma to your right ventricle which goes arythmic.
Upon coming to rest against your spinal colum the force puts your nerves into shock and you lose all funtion from your belly button down.
DO YOU CARE WHAT THE FRONTAL AREA IS?
If there was a handgun that shot a one inch diameter bullet all this might mean something, but probably not. Modern JHP ammo makes all these discussions a moot point. 9mm is probably the best choice but shoot whatever you like, it just doesn't make much difference any more.
imthegrumpyone
New member
What the hell, 
guess I've got to go read up on my technical stuff, I thought you just shot'em. Didn't realize all of this, maybe we should vote on one caliber and get rid of the rest, would make it a lot simpler.
guess I've got to go read up on my technical stuff, I thought you just shot'em. Didn't realize all of this, maybe we should vote on one caliber and get rid of the rest, would make it a lot simpler. Let's see:
(Bullet Diameter times Pi) times Powder Grains, divided by hands on gun, times the day of the month + number of ex wives = squat.
Multiple COM hits = bg (bad guy) down
Use of cover = gg (good guy) safe (he gets plus points and )
Proper Situational Awareness = problem averted (more plus points )
Unhhhh, . . . what was the OP????
May God bless,
Dwight
(Bullet Diameter times Pi) times Powder Grains, divided by hands on gun, times the day of the month + number of ex wives = squat.
Multiple COM hits = bg (bad guy) down
Use of cover = gg (good guy) safe (he gets plus points and
)Proper Situational Awareness = problem averted (more plus points
)Unhhhh, . . . what was the OP????
May God bless,
Dwight
With a name "CSI" we should be able to assume thats Crime Scene Investigation (or to me anyway).
I would think that if one is in CSI, he would know that 'FRONTAL MASS" means NOT.
Bullets change their frontal mass with they hit just about any media depending on the construction, velocity and media.
In my CSI days I learned no two bullets (even the same bullets out of the same case/gun) react the same way.
You cant MATH your way out of every problem. I'm of the school of 'PICK WHAT YOU WANT IN AMMO AND GUNS, AND LEAN TO SHOOT THAT COMBINATION, and you will be much better off.
But I guess I can always start carrying my slide rule nexted to my revolver.
I would think that if one is in CSI, he would know that 'FRONTAL MASS" means NOT.
Bullets change their frontal mass with they hit just about any media depending on the construction, velocity and media.
In my CSI days I learned no two bullets (even the same bullets out of the same case/gun) react the same way.
You cant MATH your way out of every problem. I'm of the school of 'PICK WHAT YOU WANT IN AMMO AND GUNS, AND LEAN TO SHOOT THAT COMBINATION, and you will be much better off.
But I guess I can always start carrying my slide rule nexted to my revolver.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"(Bullet Diameter times Pi) times Powder Grains, divided by hands on gun, times the day of the month + number of ex wives = squat."
I don't care what the rest of the argument is, that right there is funny as hell.
I don't care what the rest of the argument is, that right there is funny as hell.
OldShooter
New member
Kraig,
Yesterday I looked at CSI's personal information, it said his occupation was Crime Scene Investigator. Today it says cop. He had a job change overnight.
Pack an electronic calculator, they are much more convenient than a slide rule and more accurate too. I still have a nice bamboo Dietzen but it doesn't see the light of day.
If you were a CSI on TV all of this would be clear to you.
Yesterday I looked at CSI's personal information, it said his occupation was Crime Scene Investigator. Today it says cop. He had a job change overnight.
Pack an electronic calculator, they are much more convenient than a slide rule and more accurate too. I still have a nice bamboo Dietzen but it doesn't see the light of day.
If you were a CSI on TV all of this would be clear to you.
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
Bullet SHAPE is a greater factor in the amount of tissue damage caused by a penetrating bullet.
Streamlined FMJ-RN bullets crush a very small diameter hole, because most tissue merely stretches around the passing bullet.
The flatter the shape, the more tissue is crushed.
Thus a .38 wadcutter will crush more tissue than a .45 ACP FMJ-RN or an unexpanded JHP (which is, essentially, a TC shape).
Streamlined FMJ-RN bullets crush a very small diameter hole, because most tissue merely stretches around the passing bullet.
The flatter the shape, the more tissue is crushed.
Thus a .38 wadcutter will crush more tissue than a .45 ACP FMJ-RN or an unexpanded JHP (which is, essentially, a TC shape).
Quick question: Does this discussion explain or relate to the reason my buddy's 9mm fmj rounds are WAY pointier than the 45ACP fmj rounds i use?
(I will admit i slept through most of my Geometry & Trig classes in high school, 'bout 30 years ago, & haven't needed it since.)
(I will admit i slept through most of my Geometry & Trig classes in high school, 'bout 30 years ago, & haven't needed it since.)
spacecoast
New member
We're all dying to know, what did the forensic scientists come up with? Or is that going to be published in the next Weekly Handgunner?
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Quick question: Does this discussion explain or relate to the reason my buddy's 9mm fmj rounds are WAY pointier than the 45ACP fmj rounds i use?"
I still have 50 or so truncated cone 9mm bullets that I bought some years ago.
With the flat nose and relatively sharp shoulder between the nose and the ogee I'd think they would do an even better job of disrupting tissue.
I still have 50 or so truncated cone 9mm bullets that I bought some years ago.
With the flat nose and relatively sharp shoulder between the nose and the ogee I'd think they would do an even better job of disrupting tissue.
squat / frontal area = ?
Mike Irwin --->> " "(Bullet Diameter times Pi) times Powder Grains, divided by hands on gun, times the day of the month + number of ex wives = squat."
I don't care what the rest of the argument is, that right there is funny as hell. "
10-4 that Mike....
and cornbread not square in TN... cornbread are round from a cast iron skillet
Mike Irwin --->> " "(Bullet Diameter times Pi) times Powder Grains, divided by hands on gun, times the day of the month + number of ex wives = squat."
I don't care what the rest of the argument is, that right there is funny as hell. "
10-4 that Mike....
and cornbread not square in TN... cornbread are round from a cast iron skillet
I only think of frontal area as it relates to the size hole it cuts. That is somewhat noteworthy to me since a bullet which cuts an open hole has better exsanguination potential. Internal bleeding works (of course) but as good as external bleeding? I have my doubts since direct pressure is recommended as a first aid procedure to prevent blood loss. This indicates that internal bleeding is relatively healthier than external bleeding.
Hey, all I know is that large blood trails are a very favorable sign if you are not into long hikes Once you step up to rifle velocities that is a moot point though since pass through and huge exit would tend to be the rule rather than the exception.
Total surface area is not useful data except as a bearing surface for the lands and grooves to act upon. All modern bullets appear to have a handle on that. Golden Saber has a wide "driving band" but that is advertised as a weight retention feature to prevent separation. Advertising Not much sense in discussing that :barf:
Hey, all I know is that large blood trails are a very favorable sign if you are not into long hikes
Once you step up to rifle velocities that is a moot point though since pass through and huge exit would tend to be the rule rather than the exception. Total surface area is not useful data except as a bearing surface for the lands and grooves to act upon. All modern bullets appear to have a handle on that. Golden Saber has a wide "driving band" but that is advertised as a weight retention feature to prevent separation. Advertising
Not much sense in discussing that :barf:So,what I do not understand,
Suppose we drop a marble,one of those old school spheroid glass toys younguns of today maybe never played with,suppose we drop a marble 50 feet into an 8 foot deep pond.
And then,suppose we drop an equally spheroid bowling ball in the same pond,from the same height.
Both hit at exactly the same velocity. I speculate the pond is going to be more impressed with the bowling ball.
A beamier boat creates a bigger wake.
Another formula for area of a circle is pi times radius squared.That radius squared thing makes diameter matter fast.
Not only does the larger diameter transfer more energy as in a larger diameter hydraulic cylinder,lets think about lateral acceleration of tissue creating the temporary cavity.That would have something to do with time and distance.A 9 mm slug laterally accelerates tissue .178 over the time it takes the ogive to pass,and a .45 accelerates it .226
It just ain't as simple as one factor.
Hit the central nervous system,and it don't matter.
Suppose we drop a marble,one of those old school spheroid glass toys younguns of today maybe never played with,suppose we drop a marble 50 feet into an 8 foot deep pond.
And then,suppose we drop an equally spheroid bowling ball in the same pond,from the same height.
Both hit at exactly the same velocity. I speculate the pond is going to be more impressed with the bowling ball.
A beamier boat creates a bigger wake.
Another formula for area of a circle is pi times radius squared.That radius squared thing makes diameter matter fast.
Not only does the larger diameter transfer more energy as in a larger diameter hydraulic cylinder,lets think about lateral acceleration of tissue creating the temporary cavity.That would have something to do with time and distance.A 9 mm slug laterally accelerates tissue .178 over the time it takes the ogive to pass,and a .45 accelerates it .226
It just ain't as simple as one factor.
Hit the central nervous system,and it don't matter.
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