Buckshot pattern with 18.5" barrel

Yeah, but Brent lives in Florida, where the state comes down on the side of the law abiding. They aren't going to care if he double taps them, or shoots them in the head with a .30-06, as long as he was justified in shooting in the first place.

You on the other hand live in California, which is sadly why you are worried about the consequences of defending yourself.
 
Yeah, nate is right... if I am justified at all, the court visit is likely just a formality like a second job interview with some firms...

Brent
 
nate, I don't worry about the consequences of defending myself as I have a fair understanding of the legal system. I am not going to opine on Folirda law, but suggest that somone talk with practicing Florida attorneys before risking there future on what may little more more than urban legend.
 
Florida Castle Doctrine is more than an urban legend, its codified law.

Also, I'm unfamilure with Florida prosecuting any CCW holders for the judicious use of force.

It was several years ago, but I remember the ex-Marine who was a customer at a Subway in Broward County (one of the most left leaning FL counties, by the way) who shot two armed robbers, one of them in the head. All he got was a pat on the back.

I'm by no means suggesting that residents of Florida throw caution to the wind and not fully familiarize themselves with the lawful use of force. However, I am suggesting that Florida is more sympathetic to the victims of crime than California is. California CCW laws for instance, are one of the things that leads me to that conclusion.
 
If you are correct in how the law is interpreted and applied, good for you Nate. Where does it say you get an extra tap after the bad guy is down? That's the rub. When you get your trigger time, you don't know if the intruder is the nephew of a Congressman and a straight "A" student and quarterback of the local high school football team. Nor can you count on what his buddy tells the police. You say it was an automatic second tap that was part of the first shot. He may see things differently and the physical evidence may lend itself to his story. It is suprised how unfriendly a local DA can become when leaned on by someone with connections.

You are also confusing the criminal and the civil case. Even if you avoid criminal prosecution a civil jury may be a lot less friendly.
 
Look were getting off the thread topic here and I apoligize to the OP and Dave McC. So this is my last post in this thread about use of force.


TheKlawMan said:
You are also confusing the criminal and the civil case. Even if you avoid criminal prosecution a civil jury may be a lot less friendly.

Klawman, I posted the Florida Castle Doctrine link so you could read it. Evidently you didn't

Florida Castle Doctrine provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.


I know you can get sued in California by criminals you use force on and their families. That only re-enforces the points I've made about CA being less sympathetic to victims.
 
nate45, You posted a link to what purports to be a correct synopsis of the law, but not to the actual law. I suggest you have a Florida attorney school you on what the law actually means. The only thing you are correct about is that this thread is not the place to discuss the Florida Castle Law.
 
Klaw, The "double tap", when I drill, is over with before the BG would have lost the starch in his britches.

It does not mean shoot once then walk up and shoot the downed individual. "double tap" and 2 center of mass imply a very rapid follow up shot.

It matters naught if it is from a 9mm or a 12 gauge.

Brent
 
Klaw, Nate's info is as accurate as this discussion requires... I have read the florida law MANY dozen times including all of my vehicle carry options and more...

Such as I like my pistol to be under the seat or 'tween the seat and console when holstered... It is too heavy so it is hard on the door panels when I keep it in there...

If I choose to carry it with out the holster, it will be in the unlocked console or in the glove box.

It is always fully loaded and ready to go and fully legal in this condition...;)

And our castle doctrine conditions apply beyond the home to anyplace I am legal to be and firearms are not prohibited.

Florida is pretty good to us honest citizens.

Brent
 
To the OP...

There are different loads you can use to open up or tighten up the pattern.

Obviously Federal's FLITECONTROL keeps a tight pattern:

http://www.federalpremium.com/hunters_education/flitecontrol.aspx

Wolf shells have been known to spread out:

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm

On the one hand, I kind of like the idea of the shot spreading out a little bit. But then, depending on the range, I'm possibly looking at misses that leave my home and enter my neighbor's

Everyone has different situations - different homes with different hallways and maximum distances.

I guess if I think about it... I'd have no trouble putting a tight shot group into an attacker, but if I had to engage the target at 20' for whatever reason, I think I'd hesitate for fear of missing if I had a load that I knew spread out quite a bit (like the Wolf). I live in condos, and even units that are not connected to me - aren't that far away from me.

If I put a hole through someone's bedroom wall - I'm pretty sure I'd have at least one neighbor (maybe not even the nieghbor who's wall I perforated), who would want me gone. I can see someone saying that they were traumatized when they heard of the event and they aren't able to sleep for fear of getting shot in their sleep.
 
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Juries may not buy the argument that the two shots are all part of a single event. Expecially if witnesses recall any hestitation between the two or if the physical eveidence sugguests that the BG was incapacitated when executed by the second.

For the past 5 years, I've been training at Front Sight in Nevada. I attend not less than two times per year and sometimes three. I've taken defensive handgun courses, practice rifle, and tactical shotgun courses among others.

In their defensive handgun course (basic handgun training), there are no situations when two controlled shots to the thoracic cavity are not always delivered. The standard training scenario is a controlled pair to the chest.....determine if the threat still exists, and if it does, then you just entered into a failure to stop situation. (body armor in use, amped up on drugs, etc.) Failure to stop is completed with a single head shot to the cranial ocular cavity (brain box). The skills test (end of course evaluation) is conducted in this fashion as is the 4 days of intensive training.

In practical rifle (typically shot with an AR-15), we practice controlled pairs to the thoracic cavity quite often when at 25 yards or less. However, during the skills test, only single shots are performed on target.

I just finished a 4 day advanced tactical shotgun course last week. During day #3, we spent the entire afternoon working through scenarios which included a car jacking, clearing a five room shoot house, a Hogan's Alley type situation, and Shotgun Alley (a steel target rich environment set in a canyon/wash in the desert). During the car jacking scenario, I was stopped by 4 bad guys. When deploying a handgun for this situation, the correct response was to put 1 shot into the thoracic cavity of each bad guy (closest to farthest) immediately followed with a second shot to each. Once the 8th shot was delivered, you then accessed the situation to see if any threat(s) remained....and dealt with it accordingly.

By the time I made it to the shoot house, I had already shot the car jacking and shotgun alley. The first three rooms I cleared resulted in double taps using my FNH SLP semi-auto. The instructor comments during the debrief? "Nice doubles on the first couple rooms. Great recoil control and 2nd shot follow up." The muscle memory from those thousands of controlled pair shots I've delivered at Front Sight and at my local range kicked in while in the shoot house.

It matters little to me if you agree or disagree with what I've written. I posted to this thread to show that "double taps"....I prefer the phrase controlled pair....is an industry standard technique. Front Sight training well over 1000 students per week. For me, the split time for the 2nd shot of the controlled pair is around 180 milliseconds. A controlled pair is indeed one event on one target when I am shooting.
 
Back on the subject of shot pattern...

Count, I'm happy with the patterns I got from this shell/barrel combo. Maybe a little more spread would be good, but not much. I might try other buckshot shells if I can find them around here. The 20ga selection is limited.

Interesting Box O' Truth story. I wonder why the rifled bore makes the shot spread out so much? Some centrifugal force thing?
 
It matters little to me if you agree or disagree with what I've written. I posted to this thread to show that "double taps"....I prefer the phrase controlled pair....is an industry standard technique.

I am taking this to a new thread as long as some insist on hyjacking the OP's thread with what I consider to be very poor advice.
 
I think Federal plans to expand their FLITECONTROL line.

They just came out with FLITECONTROL #1 Buck in 2¾ 12ga.

I kinda wish it had 1 extra pellet in it, but I guess the reduced recoil helps with manageability (double taps / BLAM BLAM :D)

I don't think they're stocked on store shelves yet...

But hopefully Federal will make this ammo in 20ga offering too.
 
The reason I say I wish it had one extra pellet is that Remington and Winchester put 16 in theirs.

Remington Express Buckshot 12B1 (1250 fps, 16 pellets #1 Buck).

Winchester Super-X XB121 (1250 fps, 16 pellets #1 Buck).


But the Winchester and Remington are not reduced recoil loads.




.
 
Has anyone who thinks the 20 or 30ft patterns aren't tight enough actually measured the longest possible shot distance inside their home?
 
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