Buchanan Can Win? Yeah, Right!

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Oscar,
I see you are fairly new here so I’ll take it easy on you, in spite of your
comments.

1) Nobody here on TFL, so far as I know, is a disciple of any other
member. We are gathered together on TFL for discussion, for assistance
and support, for humor, and a general good time. (See the "register" area
for formal rules.)

To refer to any group of people who have similar opinions as a “collective”
is at best a misnomer. And I have no "disciples". A few of us enlightened
and politically wise folks merely happen to share some well-founded
beliefs! :) :)

Even Cactus and 416Rigby noted their political views and strategies are so
similar someone might think they were the same person - or at least
twins. But to call them disciples of Bush or the Republican Party would be
an unacceptable stretch.

We TFLers are too independent a lot to be anyone’s political disciples.

2) As for crying in the wilderness, your higher hopes for the Republican
Party is a good example. I remain convinced that the Republicans will pass
gun control legislation as they have helped pass similar infringements in
the past. Again, compare our gun rights of 1950 with our current situation
to see clearly what the combined Democrat/Republican regimes have done
to our Constitution.

3) I am truly offended at the smiling faces, the pseudo-intellectual
arguments, and condescending, paternalistic attitudes of both the
Democrats and the Republicans. The Republicans mouth the word
“realism” when what they really mean is “appeasement”. The Republicans
have become faux Democrats in the best tradition of Neville Chamberlain
and I will not support the unconstitutional actions of these two major
parties.

4) If and when the Republicans stand up and say that virtually every gun
control law and consequent regulation or directive is unconstitutional and
will be rescinded, then and only then will I have faith that the Republican
Party has returned to Constitutional rule.

Until then, folks like Ron Paul, Bob Barr, Bob Smith, etc. are the true
“voices crying in the wilderness”.

5) Until then, it is a safe bet that the two parties, in spite of their little
“pillow fights” and false public gestures designed to differentiate the
parties, will continue to infringe upon the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Their recent complicity in the unconstitutional war in Yugoslavia, in
addition to the virtual demise of the Bill of Rights, should convince any
unbiased observer that legislative and executive branches of our federal
government no longer feel restricted by the governing document which
they swore to uphold.

6) That the Democrat wing of the Dem/Rep party is more radical than the
Republican wing is common knowledge upon which we all agree. But they
work together, falsely providing a “choice” to voters while the legislators
act with little or no legal, moral, or ethical restriction.

7) We all agree on the dangers of a Gore/Bradley regime. But I steadfastly
disagree that Bush will defend the Constitution. Already we have
documented his promised gun control measures. Therefore, the difference
between the extremes of the current two-party regime (in reference ONLY
to gun control) are only a matter of timetables. The Republicans currently
intervene between the people and the Democrats to bring about the
Democrats totalitarian goals at a slower rate which, the Republicans hope,
will not arouse the ire of the voters. Well, my ire is aroused. And I vote.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 28, 1999).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have much higher hopes for the Republican Party. True
Republicans haven't deeded any long-term turf (and never will) to
any of those "moderate" (or "compassionate conservatives" for that
matter) masquerading as Reagan Republicans. And I'm confident that
the party will ultimately be taken back by the true Reagan loyalists.[/quote]

Well...thats all I need to convince me! "I have higher hopes"....."Not a true Republican...."I'm confident..."
Yep I'll base my vote on your scientifically rigorous and persuasive arguement ;)

Let's see now....taxes are the highest in history; more and more gun laws, laws affecting individual privacy and freedom and a truckload more of them waiting in line. Oh yeah...and the Republicans control both Houses. So much for the Contract with America.

There is an ancient adage..."Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me"

Why don't you convert some Conservative Dems instead...they'd like and fit in the modern Rep party

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Oscar,

A phenomena that I have discovered about the great majority of political or Second Amendment bulletin boards on the Internet is that they are havens for extremists. These people, are in essence saying, to hell with the system--let the revolution begin. They are very counterproductive to say the least.

The people who would vote for Pat, all the while knowing that they are taking votes away from a winnable candidate can't see the forest for the trees. Every time the Republicans try to stand up for their principles and do the right thing, they get crucified by the Democrats and the Liberal propagandist press. Bill Clinton shuts down the government and the Republicans get blamed for it. The Republicans try to lower taxes and they get bashed for catering to the rich. Bill Clinton takes good ideas from the Republicans and claims them as his own. The Republicans vote to ban partial birth abortion and Slick Willy vetoes the damn ban all the while saying that the Republicans are extremists.

The problem with the Republicans isn't that they don't want to do the right thing. The problem is that they CAN'T always do the right thing, because if they do the Liberal press slams them and the stupid, ignorant, soccer moms just eat it all up. What do the Buchanan backers expect the Republicans to do? Stand in line to fall on their swords? What good would that do? Let's get what we can now and come back for more when the time is right.

Are trigger locks the end of the freaking world? Get a grip you guys, that is if you can tear yourself away from the window checking for those black helicopters! ROTFLMAO

Joe



[This message has been edited by nralife (edited October 28, 1999).]
 
Nralife,

the point on which I am 100% with Dennis, DC and the other 3rd party supporters is that we as RKBA believers have to hold the political Right (whoever they are), to the "extreme" standard of backing what the Constitution says with "0" exceptions.

If the left can afford to be "extreme", and they are so every day, more and more shamelessly venting their BS on TV, in the papers and sometimes on the radio, we have to be just as unbending in our direction.

------------------
If you are younger than 20 and not a Liberal, you have no heart.

If you are older than 20 and STILL a Liberal, you have no brain.
 
Oscar,

Disciples was a bit harsh (the religious overtones and all). I think "birds of a feather" or "peas in a pod" would have been a little more fair. Dennis will probably never make you a Senior Member after that display of insensitivity.

nralife,

I think Dennis and his fellow birds/peas should take careful note of what you have to say. I have come to know you as a wise man indeed. Keep up the good work.

Rigby,

I agree that we have to be vigilant and true to our cause. I think that is what nralife, Oscar, I (and I think you) are doing in trying our best to get the best real Republican onto the ballot, and ultimately supporting the party's nomination. I agree with Oscar and have faith that we can reclaim Reagan's GOP.

Best regards to all (you too, Dennis!),
MLT
 
I stand corrected, MLT. Sorry if I offended you, Dennis. Just because you and DC are optically-challenged, that's no reason for me to be mean.

Everybody is badgering the hell out of GWB even though his centrist rhetoric at this time is totally explainable (although arguably somewhat premature) by his anticipated lock on the GOP nomination. If he's right on that point (he shouldn't count his chickens before they're hatched!), he SHOULD be campaigning as a "moderate". Can't blame him for wanting to win! (Or can you?)

Please don't cash in your chips on the upcoming election, Dennis and DC, not just to make your unadulterated political statements (which I happen to endorse). I just hope you recognize, sooner rather than later, that Reform can't win and that you should support the best candidate that can. That doesn't cast anything in stone. It's pragmatic and logical.

Respectfully,
Oscar

[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited October 28, 1999).]
 
Oscar...(and fellow travelers)

No where have I stated that I am a Reformist or that I am a supporter of Buchanan. Truth be told, emotionally I am an anarchist, intellectually a Libertarian and pragmatically a conservative. I have not stated who I intend to vote for. Only a fool (or a Liberal) would make such a statement with the election a year off. And, like a Liberal would....jump to an emotional conclusion.

However, by yours and your fellow travelers statements proves my point that current Republicans are merely varying degrees of conservative Democrats: you think like Liberals; there is always the elemental crisis and the subsequent election years that same ol new crisis pops up....and each subsequent year the party moves further to the left and further away from my belief system. And people like you either don't see it, or become more tolerant and liberal. And like Liberals, you seek pre-excuses and scapegoats for your ultimate failure and betrayal.

I had been a lifelong Republican and Reagan was the last time I felt the party represented me. I haven't changed, the party did. Been there done that. You want my support? Then stop acting like the Liberals you've become and insisting you'll get back to the base if we just win this one. You sound just like the gun grabbers..."just one more law will save the children"

Bottomline...its my vote, not yours and I will spend it as I see fit, not how you see fit


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Ladies and Gentleman,

Politics is as much a matter of tactics as any war. Dennis keeps saying that he wants the Republicans to announce that they will overturn all current gun control laws. Us hard core second amendment people would be pleased, but think carefully, what would that pronouncement accomplish? Control of the Presidency, Senate, House and Supreme Court by liberals for the foreseeable future! Any Republican candidate that said this would be crucified. Let's face reality here folks, serious gun owners are in the minority. The vast majority of non-gun owners think only of gun owners what they are told by the so called experts in the media. The Democrats and the media would have a feeding frenzy, picturing the GOP as wanting to put guns in the hands of children, murderers and rapists. If you think the media inflames gun hatred now, just imagine what they could do! You could tell people that you are only trying to adhere to the Constitution, but the majority of the people, with the medias "guidence" would reject that.

I had asked a while back if someone could name for me a gun control bill that was passed with a majority of GOP support. I received no response. The fact is that none have. As a matter of fact, the GOP Congress attempted to overturn the assault rifle ban but lacked the numbers to do so. The same goes with the attack on Kosovo. The majority of Republicans voted against this illegle war. Some Republicans voted for it, but only a small minority. There will always be Republican liberals, such as the late Sen. Chaffee, that will vote with the Democrats on certain issues.

I have been as dissappointed as the rest of the people here regarding the lack of progress made by Congressional Republicans. They have vastly underestimated Clinton's political ability and the willingness of the Democrats to back him up. They are also fighting against a media that has choosen sides. But let's look at somethings that have and hav'nt happened since the GOP has controlled Congress. (1)Taxes have NOT been raised, all spending increases have been paid for by the growth of the economy. In fact some taxes, capitol gains for example, have been lowered. Thats not much but probably the most possible with Clinton around. (2)There have been no new gun control laws passed. I do not concern myself with the legislation recently discussed, I think that it was proposed by the GOP knowing that it would not pass. This appeased the moderates while not infringing on our rights further. (3)Welfare reform. (4)A "so-called" balanced budget. All of this would have been different if the Democrats controlled Congress during the last 5 years.

For the past 5 years, we have been fighting a holding action, things have not gotten much better but they have certainly not gotten worse. In the year 2000, we have an opportunity to go on the offensive. Gov. Bush may not be perfect, but I doubt that he will push for any gun control legislation. If the GOP can gain Conservative strength, we may even see legislation passed that would turn back such things as the Brady Bill and assault weapons ban. But rest assured, if Gov. Bush (or the GOP nominee) loses, the Democrats will most likely re-gain control of Congress. I think we all know what that would bring.

Even Thomas Jefferson knew that the natural progression of government was to get stronger at the cost of liberty to the citizens. That is why the founding fathers devised a system of checks and balances. The Supreme Court is crucial to that balance. Supreme Court Justices over the many years they serve, can ultimately have far greater impact to our nation than a President that serves 8 years at the most. Supreme Court appointments are perhaps the most important thing that any President does, thank God that Clinton has only appointed two. We must consider who we want to make these appointments, AlGore or George W. Bush!
 
Dear Friends,
I will grant you, DC, that the current Republican Congress has demonstrated only one thing of late--they have no backbones or balls. That greatly disappoints me. But you have to agree that they haven't had many chances. Hand it to Slick Willy. He's one dynamite politician and knows how to one-up his foes. Nonetheless, every one of those "deer in the headlights" so-called Republicans should be ashamed of themselves.

But they don't account for all Republicans (only a small minority of them), and I haven't totally written even them off. While they're in office, they need a little more peer pressure. Cactus brings up a number of great points. Nothing really bad has happened in this Congress. True, nothing much good has happened either. I just think you are painting with too broad a brush in accusing all current Republicans in Congress. The Republican majorities in both the House and the Senate are very narrow, and all it takes is a few "moderates" to create a Democratic-led majority.

In my not-so-humble opinion, the Republicans should scrap this inclusiveness "big tent" BS and kick a few of these a-holes the hell out of our party. Ronald Reagan won with the biggest landslide victories in recent history, and he did it without being the least bit vague or equivocal regarding his stands on gun control, abortion, communism, etc. If Christie Todd Whitman and similar types in the party don't like it, tell THEM to join the friggen Reform Party! They shouldn't be pandered to, PERIOD. I sincerely hope it won't take too many more ass kickings by the Democrats for the Republicans to figure this out.

In the meantime, however, no good can come by letting Gore or Bradley in by default. They can screw us over royally for a long time to come in just 4 short years.

[This message has been edited by MLT (edited October 28, 1999).]
 
Once or twice before, I have agreed with something DC posted. Once again I have to agree with her. She has described my political position better than I could.

The fun part is that there really are a lot of us. It always makes me wonder why THEY are ahead. The answer is that WE have only recently decided to ACTIVELY seek redress.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Leave it to DC to state my thoughts better than I can express them. Thank you, young lady! :D :D
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Cactus,
With absolutely NO nastiness, I ask you to re-read your post (10/28 @ 8:33PM).

As I understand it, we agree. What I understand from your post is that ANY politician who demanded or implemented an attempt to return to the parameters of our ruling document would be crucified.

If our government has violated our Constitution so severely that anyone suggesting a correction would cause a popular revolt, that is proof positive of how far astray our government has led our people. Therefore, inasmuch as our government leaders are criminals (by violating the Constitution and corrupting our citizens) how can any believer in our Constitution justify voting for them?

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
Dennis,

If I understand your posting, the only alternative that we have left is revolution. You concur with my assessment that someone expousing those views is un-electable, yet you want to vote for them anyway. There is a difference between remaining silent on an issue and shouting it from the rooftops. You appear to want someone that will shout it from the rooftops, even though you seem to have admitted that this would be self-defeating.

It is my feeling that a President can NOT bring us back to that point alone. All politicians are heavily influenced by pressure from the public. Even the most conservative of Presidents would face these pressures.

Currently, the majority of the public has no problem with what has happened to our government. They are not even aware of it. All people are concerned with their self interests. We are a nation that no longer reacts to cold hard facts but instead is concerned about "feelings". The majority of people consider conservatives to be cold and uncaring and the liberals are more then willing to exploit that view. This is what President Reagan understood and I believe Gov. Bush understands it as well. They are both optimistic and upbeat men who accentuate the positive. This appeals to people. We are living in a time when most people are fat, dumb and happy. That makes it impossible for a candidate preaching doom and gloom, such as Pat Buchanon, to be taken seriously by a majority of people.

This is why it is my opinion that in order to get back to the true intent of our nation, the change will have to come from the Supreme Court. Currently the Court is narrowly devided 5 to 4 towards the conservative side as evidenced by some of the recent decisions returning power to the States. Two of the mostly conservative justices are expected to retire soon as well as one liberal. If AlGore is elected, the balance of the Court will turn back to the Warren Court days. This Court would not be a friend of gun owners or anyone else who believes in the original intent of the Constitution.

Gov. Bush has stated that his ideal choice for the Supreme Court would be someone like Antonin Scalia. Justice Scalia is, along with Justice Thomas, the most conservative justice on the Court. He is a strong believer in judicial constraint and original intent. If three justices of his mind were to be appointed, the Court would be a 6 to 3 conservative majority, with 5 of them being powerful believers in not using the courts to bring about legislation.

This is why I am not at all concerned if Gov. Bush does not reflect my views perfectly. We need to remember that the power is in the courts. Presidents come and go, but judges serve for life. This is where a President wields his greatest power. This is why FDR tried to stack the Supreme Court. The Court was obstructing what he wanted to do and until he could get a majority on the Court, his goals were not fully realized.

If we want to realize OUR goals, Dennis, look to the Court. A President is only the vehicle to get us there. Let's not pick one that won't even start up in the morning.

Well friends, I'm off elk hunting for a week. I hope I don't miss to much but I'm sure that I probably will. Wish me luck!

Cactus

[This message has been edited by Cactus (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
For a long, long time Pat Bucannon was an insider. He wrote speaches for various presidents and had a voice on the national stage. He was given credibility of one kind or another for years.

All of a sudden he becomes persona non grata, is called a natzi and is bashed by the big media because he dared to go against the power brokers with an agenda he thinks Americans want. You will note they do not let him live or die by the strenght or weakness of his ideas. They slander him, destroy his good name, etc, all designed to keep him from upsetting the two party system. Their desire to destroy him, to falsley accuse him of being a natzi, to make him look bad to the American people....... all of these things are just the reasons why we should vote for him. Or are you going to beleive the horse**** spread by the media about Pat? The current power brokers don't want him because he don't tow their line, their desire to destroy him is proof enough for me that he is the man we should vote for. It's time to upset the apple cart and send our politicians a message! A message that the American people refuse to be lead by the nose and lead down the primrose path by an all powerfull media and the politicians who cowtow to that media. I will will make up my own mind....thank you! And the rest of you should too!

Unfortunatly, too many of you are going to abide the media line and vote either republican or democrat....too bad because those are exactly the people who have, are and will continue to wither your rights. Just remember "little by little, bit by bit" your rights will fade and it takes both parties to acheive that goal.

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
Cactus, Cactus. Whyfore doest thou persecuteth me?

If, in your mind, armed revolution is the only alternative to voting for one
of the two major parties then we need to stop talking about politics.

For cryin’ out loud, dude! I’ve been talking about voting for a third party
(or parties) from the git-go! For you to say that we must vote Republican
or start shooting is absolutely a false representation of what I have been
saying for months.

Jeez! Give me a break.

That’s too obscene to reply to until you return from your elk hunt (which I
hope is great fun and successful for you). You need to defend that misrepresentation of me and my views in person.
 
MLT,

Thanks for your kind words!

I feel like you and the others are wasting your breath talking to people like Dennis. If Dennis and people like him want to cut off their noses to spite their faces, let them do it. Your time and my time would be much better spent talking to rational people elsewhere about this topic. I will no longer discuss this subject here.

Joe


[This message has been edited by nralife (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
[Posted twice due to TFL server problems. See next post.]

[This message has been edited by MLT (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
nralife (Joe),
You're entirely welcome, and I agree with you. Let's stop beating our heads against the wall lest we loose our senses and consider quandering our votes on the Survivalist Party candidate. I'm really glad that Dennis, DC and company have not reliquished their votes entirely, and am confident that there is a polling place within a day's drive of their bunkers in the Idaho panhandle.
Warm regards,
Matt

[This message has been edited by MLT (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
MLT,

While I'm not afraid of the "boogie man" (NWO), I don't think that it would be a bad idea to have a shelter from the storm if society unhinges itself. ;-) With Y2K, the Chinese threat, and everything else on our horizon, I believe a prudent person should at least prepare for some minor eventualities.

In fact, I have a self reliance and preparedness forum along with my Second Amendment forum where we discuss such things.

The addy to my preparedness forum is...
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb618087

& my Second Amendment forum can be found at...
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb618060

I hope to see you over there!

Joe
 
Well, we must remember that reading any particular thread IS optional. But to imply that voting exclusively by party lines (regardless of their actions) does not quite justify implying those who disagree are not rational.

Buchanan is not my idea of a favorite son, but he is more a Republican than those Republicans who sign gun control laws.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 29, 1999).]
 
OK...96K+, and with the slow state of the server currently this thread is extremely painful and iffy to load.

Feel free to start part 2

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
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