Browning Hi Power--the mystery pistol?

I read all the time about Hi Power triggers and the magazine detection system.
I reworked my Hi Power trigger a few years ago with a stone and the dreaded dremel. I took the trigger from about 7 or 8 lbs down to 4 lbs. Just some very careful work with the fire control parts.
I've shot my Hi Power now for several years, the trigger still breaks smoothly with no degradation or wear.
I suspect it is easy to try and go to far with a Hi Power trigger and create problems just as it is with any 1911.
In my estimation the 9mm cartridge in the Hi Power isn't the competition capable pistol the 1911 is; accounting for a much smaller market for upgrades.
Still a good choice for social work and the weekend hobbiest.
I've done 1911 trigger work and the idea is similar, reduce the notch and smooth out the interface with care.
Still not a project for the weekend kitchen table wanna be smith.
I suspect most qualified 1911 smiths could do the same as I.
The market for Hi Power work is just so small compared to 1911 work.
The same for the Hi Power magazine detection parts. I hate to call it a safety.
Gun smiths are likely to avoid the liability of removing a percieved safety feature of any firearm. As would I.
It is still possible to smooth out the mag detection parts, but not likely to get the smooth clean trigger found in a 1911.
 
Under 30 and I've had these for a few years.




I really like the BHP but there are a few refinements that could have made them a little better IMO.
 
I bought a MK III and 4 extra magazines at the USMC Recruit Depot, San Diego, CA, around 1972 for $111.00. They had a sale on them as so many service members were taking them to Viet Nam. Several to to female nurses and corpsmen headed over there. With some of today's standard pressure self defense ammo, they're great for that purpose. +P loads are hard on those versions of that era and should only be used as a last resort or sparingly, at most. Current versions are fine with +P loads, but the new triggers aren't as clean and crisp as the older single action ones, in my opinion.

I take it to the local range few times a year practicing my SD routine; starting in position, 10 shots in 10 seconds inside 10 inches at 10 yards. I still put 8 or 9 of 'em in, sometimes 10. When I use my S&W Model 19, all four numbers in the routine are 6.
 
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.40 cal HP

When the HP got released in .40 cal, I decided I would have one. Not classic, not traditional, but it seemed a fair meld of design, good looks and caliber. The trigger was heavy when new, but has lightened up with use and dry fire. I really have no problem with the trigger now, stock, as is. Early on, I tried tinkering with the mag safety to disconnect same, just to see, but disconnecting the newer HP mag safety is apparently a bit more tricky than doing same on the old style.

Blue steel and walnut, fixed sights. Mine has been perfectly reliable.
 
I am in the my early 40s and have been shooting the Browning Hi Power for over 10 years. I own some tactical plastic and have no issues with them but I have always preferred metal guns. Started with Sigs and moved to CZs and 1911s. I then found the BHP.

It is hands down my favorite 9mm. It is the gun I shoot best. It fits my hand well, point naturally and with a little work the trigger is excellent. I have BHPs of all sorts of vintage and have bought and sold close to 12 of them over the last decade. There are differences depending on what vintage the pistol is. My favorite is a custom C series which was worked on by Jim West of Wild West Guns. It is the gun which solidified my love the BHP. These are some of the current ones in stable. I have









I am not going to argue the merits of the BHPs trigger. That has been beat to death. It is not a 1911 trigger and it never will be. It is what it is. Very few triggers are the 1911s equal. What I will assert is that an excellent BHP trigger is obtainable. It can be done by many individuals who understand how the pistol works and there are many smiths that make or have made their living and their reputation on making the BHP trigger excellent. I personally own two which I consider to have excellent triggers.

I really recommend trying to shoot a Novak, Don Williams, C&S, Yost, Jim West etc.... BHP. They are a different animal. Most people have shot a semi-custom 1911 or full house custom 1911 but few people have shoot custom BHPs. So IMHO many of the comparisons between 1911s and BHP are not an apples to apples comparison. I will however agree that most out of the box 1911 triggers at $1000 and under are better than an out of the box BHP trigger.

All the FN pistols were late arrivals on the U.S. market because, up to the mid-1950's, there was an agreement between Colt and FN to divvy up the market. FN did not sell their guns in the Western Hemisphere and Colt did not sell theirs in Europe and the Middle East. The rest of the world was up for grabs.
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This is a great point. Browning did not start importing BHPs until 1954. Colt and FN believed that each new John Moses Browning would be a the "better mouse trap." To compete openly against each other with these designs would be to the determinant of both companies. So when it came to JMB designs Browning, Colt and FN had an agreement. This agreement was about JMB designs only IIRC.

They did divide up the world and each company was responsible to file and protect the patients of the other in their respective territories. So when the French wanted a new pistol they approached FN who then approached JMB. They gave him the double stack mag designed by Saive along with a modified
1903 Browning. This is what JMB used to make his last design.

IIRC JMB made 2 protoypes. One was a striker fired blow back design the other was a striker fired lock breech version. Both of these were first submitted to Colt so they could file the proper patients in the Colt territories and they expressed no interest at that time in producing the pistol which was to become known as the Grand Rendement.

The pistol was then sent to FN who wanted to develop one so they could get the french contract and they choose the lock breech version. It was not that Colt could not have made a Grand Rendement they chose not to.

Here is a pic of the original patient filed in the US by Colt.





The trigger in a BHP is crappy due to it being designed by a European for European police. That stupid mag safety is only there because of that. No other reason. It was not in JM's early design. Fortunately it comes out with a wee drift pin. Not having the trigger dragging on the magazine drops the trigger pull significantly.
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This statement is inaccurate in many ways. First what we know as the BHP was designed to meet the spec of the French Military not a European Police force. The trigger design in todays BHP is Dieudonné Saive design not JMBs. Saive was designer of the FN FAL among others. He designed the mag disconnect which was added to the contract after JMBs death. Since the BHP was a contract gun had JMB still been alive he too would have added the devise. JMB & then Saive were constrained by the contract requirements. As I stated before if properly polished the mag disconnect can be left in the gun and still have an excellent trigger.
 
All Hi-Power pistols have a very good look to them, but that two-tone pistol you pictured first at the top of the four pictures is just SCORCHING good looking. Seriously. I simply haven't obsessed over Hi-Powers like many have so I'm sure that I haven't laid eyes on the sheer number of different ones out there, but if I were tasked with compiling the best looking Hi-Powers I've ever seen, I'd start with that picture and use it as the control item to quickly and easily weed out the rest that cannot hang.

I don't even pretend to suggest that my tastes are right or that anyone would agree with them, but that's a gorgeous handgun. :eek::cool:
 
All Hi-Power pistols have a very good look to them, but that two-tone pistol you pictured first at the top of the four pictures is just SCORCHING good looking. Seriously. I simply haven't obsessed over Hi-Powers like many have so I'm sure that I haven't laid eyes on the sheer number of different ones out there, but if I were tasked with compiling the best looking Hi-Powers I've ever seen, I'd start with that picture and use it as the control item to quickly and easily weed out the rest that cannot hang.

I don't even pretend to suggest that my tastes are right or that anyone would agree with them, but that's a gorgeous handgun.
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Thanks Sevens. That is the newest edition. It is a alloy framed FN Hi Power. I sent it to Mr. Don Williams of Action Works and worked his magic. The gun is slick and weighs about the same as Glock 17. The custom job included.

C&S Hammer & Sear set
Trigger Job
Reliability package
Front & Backstrap Stippling
Beveled Mag well
Smooth out package
Garthwaite wide trigger
Don Williams custom wide safety
NP3 frame and black Rogard on the slide & controls
Harrison 1911 sights with Tritium Front and rear.
Spegel Grips
 
Love the way the Hi-Power looks and feels, but every single one I've fired has "bitten" me, because I've got large hands and either the tang or the shank ends up nipping me.
 
With a true custom-level BHP, please answer me this -- and in my opinion, this is pretty basic:

--ensure the pistol is completely free & clear of ammo
--check again
--rack it, cocked, return to battery
--dry fire pistol taking care to leave trigger fully pressed
--draw slide rearward
Moment of truth: does the trigger travel FURTHER when the slide gets drawn rearward?

Dry-firing a Hi-Power offers a short interview of the trigger pull, but it's just not what happens when the slide starts to move. I'm not saying "dry fire isn't live fire", I'm saying a simple dry fire only has the trigger moving enough to trip the sear, but the moment the slide moves -- that trigger finds *NEW* and excessive room to move rearward, which it does, which makes me want to punch myself in the face.

MY clone was three hundred and worth every penny simply for the ability to send shots down range like dozens of other interesting handguns I own. But several hundred for a base Hi-Power of decent lineage and then more time/money/care in to addressing the inherent design "features" that just seem like obstacles to me is not something I see myself doing.

I certainly don't mean or wish to slag the guns, I *KNOW* they are much loved, they just do not work for me because of the design elements. And the vague trigger reset on every true Hi-Power or clone I've handled (admittedly, only a half dozen) is #2 on my list of deal-breakers.

The one true Browning Hi-Power I did own was a 2011 build and it was beautiful but it had all the elements I couldn't stomach and there was no way it was going to stay.

As a side bar, and NOT a complaint... but a heads-up... when you take a Hi-Power to a gun show and offer for sale, here's what you will hear 85% of the time: "Portugal? Thank you but no" And my assumption is that these are not coming from guys who wish to shoot a handgun (at all, ever), this comes from guys who simply wish to profit on a gun flip. Offering a Portugal assembled Hi-Power seems to be like showing up with a Spanish copy of a Smith & Wesson. Everyone asks what/how much, but when they see or hear Portugal, the conversation hath endeth.
 
With a true custom-level BHP, please answer me this -- and in my opinion, this is pretty basic:

--ensure the pistol is completely free & clear of ammo
--check again
--rack it, cocked, return to battery
--dry fire pistol taking care to leave trigger fully pressed
--draw slide rearward
Moment of truth: does the trigger travel FURTHER when the slide gets drawn rearward?

Dry-firing a Hi-Power offers a short interview of the trigger pull, but it's just not what happens when the slide starts to move. I'm not saying "dry fire isn't live fire", I'm saying a simple dry fire only has the trigger moving enough to trip the sear, but the moment the slide moves -- that trigger finds *NEW* and excessive room to move rearward, which it does, which makes me want to punch myself in the face.
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I grabbed a few of them out of the safe.

The WWG C series custom does not move.

The Don Williams gun does not move.

The MKIII Practical I own does not move. This gun is Stock minus the removal of the disconnect.

The Israeli import moves ever so slightly. This gun is Stock minus the removal of the disconnect.

I know what you are saying about the reset. They are a bit vague even at their best. Stock parts have a longer reset. To me the feel in the hand and point-ability make these things I can easily live with.
 
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Late to the party, but I'm 27 and my Hi Power is my favorite. I bought it when I was 25, and I actually don't own a 1911 at the moment, but they are on the list. Mine is a MK 2 with aftermarket trigger work, mag safety removed, and wide trigger and safety done from C&S. But I bought it that way, and never fired another one. I'm thinking of getting a new MK 3 in the flat finish to balance them out
 
Mr. Camp--I miss his posts.
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Is he no longer posting? Why? I have always respect Mr. Steven Camp and have enjoyed his post and his website. I must say, I have learned a lot from this man.

I really recommend trying to shoot a Novak, Don Williams, C&S, Yost, Jim West etc.... BHP. They are a different animal. Most people have shot a semi-custom 1911 or full house custom 1911 but few people have shoot custom BHPs. So IMHO many of the comparisons between 1911s and BHP are not an apples to apples comparison. I will however agree that most out of the box 1911 triggers at $1000 and under are better than an out of the box BHP trigger.
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This is a very excellent point. Many people compare apples to oranges. The BHP is not a 1911, but with the correct parts and in the hands of an excellent gunsmith can have a great trigger. The ergonomics are fantastic. I have started many a new shooter with a Ruger 22/45 and then transitioned to the BHP and have had the question “why did I not start with this?” I think it is an excellent gun for a beginner and my wife has taken one of mine as hers. This has become her primary defensive gun. It is an excellent design. It is not a 1911, nor will it ever be.

How Cooper could like the CZ and not the Hi-Power is a mystery to me. I had one years ago, one of the few I'd like to have back.
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I agree!
 
Is he no longer posting? Why? I have always respect Mr. Steven Camp and have enjoyed his post and his website. I must say, I have learned a lot from this man.
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Mr Camp passed away.
 
Another strike against the BHP (and other pistols) in the U.S. was that the structure of American (NRA) target shooting in the second half of the 20th century was heavily slanted toward the .45 ACP, the service pistol, and the .38 revolver. Even after good HP's became available, there was little incentive for American pistolsmiths to take on the task of working over HP's for accuracy and trigger improvement. Canadian military armorers did excellent work on the HP (which was their service pistol) for military matches, but few of those guns ever became available outside the Canadian defense establishment.

Jim
 
I didn't realize HP's were nigh-unavailable up into the 70's. That would explain the lack of popularity; it's not like Walther P38's were just burning up the American market, either (granted, that pistol has a lot more going against it, but principle of a milsurp-only brand tainting a model is well-established)

So, the answer is shady collusion by gun companies (shock), and irrational bias by American gun writers pushing 45acp in both competition and marketing. Sounds about right ;)

TCB
 
Just a thought about the HP and the 1950s up into the 1970s:

Automatic pistols just weren't as popular back then, not even the 1911 though of course it was better known being a U.S. service pistol.

I can remember a Guns & Ammo Annual from about 1975 and the Colt Government (about all there really was then on the market besides the Gold Cup in 1911s) had a suggested MRP some $10 or $15 less than the Smith Model 19. Revolvers ruled back then!

But I do remember HPs being available as well.

I got a Smith Model 39 since that's what the Illinois State Police carried since 1969 and reports were it was happy with the choice. It just happened in the mid '70s some state troopers ran a range and one day while talking to a couple of them, they suggested I check out the Browning Hi Power. I did and bought one. I don't recall it hard to find one at sporting stores and LGSs.

I've been, like a lot of gun owners, through a lot of different types of revolvers and automatics but I kept getting back to the HP.

But because of the proliferation of autos these days, the HP is harder to find, I think, than back in the '70s. Today it's more of a hunt. And let's face it, the HP is the HP period while the 1911 has a myriad of styles, names and makers.
 
The HP is the only 9mm pistol I've bought and kept.
I prefer the long-oval grip shape of the 1911 to the "square" section of the HP grip, but the latter is still comfy, and the all-metal construction results in good balance.
Removing the mag disconnect appears to be no panacea, with as many complaining about mushy trigger return, as singing the praises of the lighter pull weight.
My gun still has the diconnect, and my only real complaint is that it prevents the mags from falling free.
 
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