Browning Hi Power: Poor Metallurgy?

For what it is worth, a good friend had an Argentine Commander-size 9 mm Hi Power called the Detective. He shot it a lot until it failed to go into battery. The Hi Power expert gunsmith who examined it reported the slide was soft and unusable. The friend now has a sweet little .22 RF Hi Power.
 
To play devil's advocate, why are you so set on it being the tool and not possibly bad tempering?
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ok,the steel is so soft that it bends with thumb screw pressure.
Very good, in that case you can push it back with just as little force and afterwards you might consider junking the slide.A couple of decades machinig steel doesnt make a metalurgist but does give some experience to offer an opinion.
 
polyphemus said:
ok,the steel is so soft that it bends with thumb screw pressure.

Very good, in that case you can push it back with just as little force and afterwards you might consider junking the slide.A couple of decades machinig steel doesnt make a metalurgist but does give some experience to offer an opinion.
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I wasn't trying to discpunt your experience, though explaining you're a machinist helps me understand where you're coming from. The tool can only apply as much pressure as I apply, and while I do have good grip strength I don't think I went to town on this, especially as I said compared to other times I've used it on the same design. It may be that where the tool places pressure requires more caution than I've used in the past. My point is simply to call the company and say the tool is at fault when I have the other experience with it that I do seems, to me, disingenuous. I guess I could shoot them an email just as an FYI.

I mention the softness of the slide because I've seen this on a friend's Hi Power before. He was using a jig that was off center and rather than the slide cutting/mashing the sight the sight cut right into the slide. Could have been just a sight that was hardened too much, was a Trijicon front sight, but it was odd and when this happened made me wonder. That said, I'm a long way from having the reputation of FNH.

In the end the person at fault is me. I used the tool, and it was my decision. Had I used a vice and a brass punch my guess is dispersing the force over a larger area would have helped, but this was still tight enough that it would have been a struggle. Sometimes the easier route has consequences in some cases and maybe others can avoid this happening to them.

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Somebody like Bill Laughridge or Don Williams might have some thoughts; but it isn’t the first time I’ve heard of odd, random Hi-Powers having issues with soft steel. And an early MkIII would be right around the time period they were changing their heat treat process.
 
OK, get a big bolt and nut. You might have to cut the bolt to fit inside the slide. That's OK as you are making a tool. Now, grind the surface on the nut (where the head is) smooth and polish it afterward. Assemble the bolt and nut together and insert the bolt and nut inside the slide. Then using a wrench, gradually move the nut out. This will expand the slide.

Use a flat rule to make sure the slide is flat again. Check after you remove he nut/bolt. It may spring back. Sometimes you have to use a pair of nuts and bolts.

Machinist friend taught me that when you clamp a slide (or a frame), support it to prevent compression like what happened here. He has a boxful of different size gauges that he can use as insert. If nothing else, get a piece of oak and make it fit inside the slide.
 
To play devil's advocate, why are you so set on it being the tool and not possibly bad tempering?
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Logic suggests if the temper was bad this would show up during shooting, and fairly rapidly. Something like peened or battered locking lug recesses, or possibly the bolt face.

It may be only "finger tight" but a screw thread can increase the leverage more than you think. Not saying it did, just not something to entirely discount.

Sure, a HP could have softer than spec slide, anything is possible but such "Goofs" usually show up during use.
 
Fair point. I haven't shot this one much yet, but that's something to watch for.

As long as the metal parts on the pistol are tempered relative to each other correctly they should be okay. It takes a metal of equal or greater hardness to damage another. Maybe the sight pusher is hardened moreso than the slide, but the difference isn't as much on the other slides I have.

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A sight pusher can generate tremendous amount of force; easily 1000 lbf. That pushing force only means anything when the slide is held fast. In other words, force of similar magnitude is applied on the slide. If that force is allowed to apply to the unsupported part of the slide, the slide may collapse. Ends of the slide, especially the rear end, are self supported, but the middle of the slide is not.

The wheeler pusher is not cheap. But I myself is not very impressed with its design. The supporting pads are too small and not contoured to fit the slide profile. Worst of all, one pair of them clamp on to the mid section of the slide. I would put in a plug to support the slide if I have to use it.

A screw spreader, as highlighted by a previous post, would be my way to fix the damage.

-TL

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As long as the metal parts on the pistol are tempered relative to each other correctly they should be okay. It takes a metal of equal or greater hardness to damage another.
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The general term you want is "heat treated". "temper" is a specific technique of heat treatment. (It gives up hardness for toughness.) "Heat treat" and "temper" should not be used synonymously.
 
TunnelRat said:
I wasn't trying to discpunt your experience, though explaining you're a machinist helps me understand where you're coming from. The tool can only apply as much pressure as I apply, and while I do have good grip strength I don't think I went to town on this, especially as I said compared to other times I've used it on the same design.
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The fix 4V50 Gary suggested should work as well as the fix approach I suggested.

As to how it could happen -- look at the geometry of the tool. The clamps holding the slide are well aft of the front site, and they clamp the slide at points where there's nothing between the rails to provide any internal support/bracing.

Now you set the pusher and start moving the sight. You're applying a lateral force forward of the supports. I can easily see one of the supports acting as a fulcrum to allow the pushing force to squeeze at the other support. The sight pusher I use on 1911 slides uses a filler contoured like the top of the receiver to fill the rail slots in the slide.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
The fix 4V50 Gary suggested should work as well as the fix approach I suggested.



As to how it could happen -- look at the geometry of the tool. The clamps holding the slide are well aft of the front site, and they clamp the slide at points where there's nothing between the rails to provide any internal support/bracing.



Now you set the pusher and start moving the sight. You're applying a lateral force forward of the supports. I can easily see one of the supports acting as a fulcrum to allow the pushing force to squeeze at the other support. The sight pusher I use on 1911 slides uses a filler contoured like the top of the receiver to fill the rail slots in the slide.
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Yeah I have a MGW sight pusher that use a block like you described. I always assumed it was just a more precise way of holding it in place, but it does make sense that it would help prevent this issue as well. The problem is I have a lot of different pistols and unless I want to pony up for the MGW Pro sight pusher with changeable blocks then I'd need a bunch of individual pushers and my desk is crowded as is (not to mention the individual cost).

Not to be a broken record, but this is the only time this tool has been an issue on a dozen plus pistols, including another Hi Power. I'm also wondering if I didn't have all points of contact tightened equally and that allowed the slide to torque more than normal (the fact that the slide isn't the same width all the way down could also be a factor). My experience is the tool can work well, but there obviously is a caution I didn't fully appreciate.

I do appreciate all the possible fix recommendations. I might still see if that one gunsmith has time as his work has been excellent for me in the past. I'll update to let people know the resolution.

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Nuts, bolts, lapping, gripe at tool manufacturer, etc....tunnel rat you are experienced enough to know something like this should ( as Bill DeShivs advised) be handled by a competent gunsmith who probably has encountered like situations before.
 
BTW, I wouldn't use brass punch for any trijicon/tritium sight. Glass vials and all that.

Better to clamp the slide in a vise. Next, get a brass round stock and ground or file it to match the contour of the sight to be installed. Get it as close as possible. Put it round stock into the jaw of the drill press and hand turn it to ensure it aligns perfectly with the slide. You may want to C-clamp the vise into place a two places to keep it from shifting. Now, using the drill press handle, lower the chuck such that the round stock pushes the sight in/out.
 
When I tried to drift the rear sight on my HP with a different brand of pusher, can't remember who made it, I could see the slide twisting before having applied enough force to budge the sight.
The slide sprang back, no harm done, but it was pretty alarming at the time.
 
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