Brit cops to carry guns on patrol

RHC

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For those not up on Brit slang, a housing "estate" is a housing project, aka a ghetto.

From the new Sunday times:

October 22 2000 BRITAIN
Police carry pistols on routine street patrols
Adam Luck


Lethal weapon: a police gun
©

A POLICE force has introduced armed foot patrols on the streets for the first time in mainland Britain in an attempt to combat rising gun crime.
Officers wearing Walther P990 pistols on their hips are conducting regular patrols on estates in Nottingham. The move, called Operation Real Estate, represents a significant shift in British policing, which has prided itself on the tradition of the unarmed bobby on the beat.

Until now, armed officers have been deployed on the streets of Britain only for diplomatic duties or to tackle specific incidents such as sieges, armed robberies and terrorist attacks. In Northern Ireland, however,officers have patrolled for years armed with at least a handgun.

The use of the foot patrols in Nottingham is being monitored by at least six other forces, including Merseyside and West Yorkshire, which face similar problems over gun crime, largely drug-related.

Chief constables are free to make their own decisions on how they deploy armed officers, and the Home Office was not consulted over the move by Nottinghamshire police.

This weekend Charles Clarke, the Home Office minister, admitted that he had not been aware of it until last week. "I would stress this is an operational matter for the chief constable, but I have asked for a full briefing," he said. "For the time being, I am not going to say more than that."

The patrols were launched by Nottinghamshire police after a series of shootings on the city's St Ann's and Meadows estates sparked by a turf war between rival gangs of drug-dealers.

At least six officers, armed with pistols and operating in pairs, spend up to five hours from dusk until midnight patrolling the streets. They are supported by two police vans, in which Heckler and Koch MP5 rifles are kept, to be used only for special incidents or road checks.

Out on patrol on Wednesday evening last week, the police were met by groups of roaming children, many on bikes, who were fascinated by the sight of the holsters.

"Why are you carrying a gun and other policemen don't?" one boy asked. He did not receive an answer. Another child pretended to shoot the policeman, repeatedly mouthing: "Pop, pop".

Senior Nottinghamshire officers believe the use of armed patrols, which are reviewed weekly, has sent a "strong message" to criminals not to use weapons and has, so far, helped prevent gun crime spiralling out of control.

Marcus Beale, the chief superintendent overseeing the operation, said: "You have got to the point in Leeds where you have had executions - likewise, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool all suffer from widespread gun violence.

"One of the challenges we face is looking to prevent that cycle increasing to the point where you find bodies. Put simply, this measure is about preventing gun violence becoming the norm and someone being murdered."

The operation - which also includes increased unarmed patrols and is linked to other schemes for inner-city improvement - has been largely welcomed by the community, although some have their reservations.

Vincent Lloyd Robinson, 63, whose son was killed when he intervened in a fight between two gangs in Nottingham, said: "I support it, although I am worried that innocent people might end up being killed in any crossfire."

The officers are specially trained in the use of firearms and abide by guidelines that insist they draw weapons only where there is "a danger or threat to life". Police are facing increasing gun crime, up by 10% in the past year.

The move has provoked controversy, however. Geoffrey Bindman, a leading human rights lawyer, warned that it could encourage more criminals to carry weapons.

"This could get you into a worrying spiral." he said. "You only have to look at the appalling example of America where everyone seems walk around with a gun. There is a concern with implementing this type of zero tolerance measure that it becomes hard to reverse."

Some senior police officers are also concerned. Chief Inspector John Powell, of the Metropolitan police, said: "One would hope that it is not the thin end of the wedge. British policing has been based on the principle of consent."

However, Sean Price, Nottinghamshire assistant chief constable, said that, although the initiative was open-ended, "I still hope we are a long way away nationally from approaching the position of permanently arming officers."
 
What a concept! Armed police in high crime areas? Wow! Why who would have thought of such a brilliant concept, if it weren't for the Brits?!!

Regards! DaMan
 
This story can't be real. MikeH has been trumpeting how crime is going DOWN in Britain. With his story as a backdrop, I cannot conceive of Brit cops needing guns.

Just lay in more surveillance cameras....

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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Senior Nottinghamshire officers believe the use of armed patrols, which are reviewed weekly, has sent a "strong message" to criminals not to use weapons and has, so far, helped prevent gun crime spiralling out of control.

Marcus Beale, the chief superintendent overseeing the operation, said: "You have got to the point in Leeds where you have had executions - likewise, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool all suffer from widespread gun violence.[/quote]

This is patently absurd. The preceding statements are obvious fabrications, as any good liberal knows that they have total gun control in England.

*sigh* I suppose they're being smuggled up I-95 from Virginia...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Now, let me get this straight. A few British LEOs are getting the means to defend themselves? Bad precedent! Next thing, somebody might get the idea that civilians have the same right. Tut tut. :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited October 22, 2000).]
 
The British are strage compared to other Europeans. In most European countries (including my home country Finland) police is and has always been armed, and civilian gun ownership is legal (but more restricted than in the USA). In Britain, first civilian handgun ownership was banned, then gun related crime has grown much more than in most of Europe, and now the police is going to be armed. If they were not British they might do like most of us think is right, give gun rights to both police and civilians.

Ossi
 
Tamara, Wouldn't that be down I-85 from Va. to where you are? Or maybe over on I-20? I actually miss Atlanta.
Hey, do Canadian police and Australian police carry handguns on patrol?

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
Heh. Sorry, I guess having heard so many fictional NYPD detectives on TV shows complain about "illegal guns coming up I-95 from Virginia" that I subconsciously began thinking that's where all illegal guns must come from...

After all, I heard it on TV, so it must be true! ;)

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Golly! Criminals have GUNS in Tony Blair's socialist paradise? I am shocked!

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BOYCOTT SLICK & WESSON

"To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it."
Confucius
 
To be honest Dennis, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I see armed officers in response vehicles in Manchester every single day when I leave the office to get some lunch. The only difference is that 6 of them are now allowed to step out of the vehicle and go for a walk in an inner city drugs area with them, makes sense to me, we have our crime blackspots just like any other western nation, but it's hardly world news. Although I do admittedly have reservations about this being the thin end of the wedge. Armed cops and SWAT teams on the streets are not something we want, they make us look as para-military as the rest of the world, as Elian Gonzales would no doubt agree (I was of course referring to Cuba). Of more interest is the weapon mentioned, first time I've heard of the Wooden Tops (aka British police) using Walther P99's. You'd think we'd buy British and get the USP.

Mike H
 
Mike H:

From our side of the pond the fuss is about hearing over and over again how the firearms laws that our opponents in the War on Guns wish to pass would create a veritable "Land o' Milk 'n' Honey" where murder and suicide would cease and robbery and rape would become, apparently, polite transactions between perpetrator and perpetratee with no icky violence of the type caused by the mind control aura that firearms apparently emit. Through no fault of yours, your homeland is held up as a shining example of this. If we, the potential psychopaths and holdup artists of the NRA and the local skeet club would just turn our firearms in, we could cease the paranoid delusions that cause us to want to protect ourselves with guns in the first place. Time and again, we're told that "With UK-style gun laws, there'll be no danger from violence to defend yourself from; guns are banned there." (As though Glenda the Good had *poof!* wished them all into the cornfield or something.) Even barring the logical loopholes such as "How does the weak defend herself against the strong? The old from the young? The individual from the gang?", we are left to wonder, when we read the passages below:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Senior Nottinghamshire officers believe the use of armed patrols, which are reviewed weekly, has sent a "strong message" to criminals not to use weapons and has, so far, helped prevent gun crime spiralling out of control.

Marcus Beale, the chief superintendent overseeing the operation, said: "You have got to the point in Leeds where you have had executions - likewise, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool all suffer from widespread gun violence. [/quote]

If there is such danger from firearms in what is held up to us constantly as HCI's vision of Beulahland that the police now carry guns to protect themselves from banned firearms, then why in a country that makes a religion of fair play, do the average citizens not rate access to the same means to protect themselves? It just doesn't seem 'cricket'...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
I think it's hilarious that the place in question is Nottingham.

Are these policeman patrolling the Sherwood Forest?

Will they ever catch that bandit in tights that's been killing the King's deer?

On a more serious note, looks like their gun plan is right on schedule.

First you take them away from the citizenry.

Then you give them to the police...

Soon you'll only have one candidate to vote for.

The Pilgrims left for a reason....
 
According to Leroy Thompson, the London Metro PD bought about a few thousand Glocks several years ago, and issued a contract for holsters that could be concealed under the uniform. Makes you wonder how long they've really been packing.
 
Tamara....

Yo Baaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyybeeeeeeeee!!!!!

What you said.

MikeH, she is EXACTLY right. Hypocrisy such as that now CLEARLY demonstrated in the "People's Socialist Paradise of England" is quite funny to see.

Too bad it's KILLING private, law-abiding citizens. It also forces those subjects to "travel abroad" to enjoy real freedom.

Isn't that right...?

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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
 
All I know is that British criminals must be woosies. I can't even imagine how long an unarmed cop would last in the Hood here in the U.S.A.
 
Tamara: Great posts, Yes, how often do we hear the anti-gunners chant "if we just lived like tha UK we would be in a crime free paradise". Anti-gun idealism with no regard for different cultures or environments.

Apple A Day: Ozzie and Canadian Cops do carry, but under strict provisions, e.g. no off-duty carry or backups

Interesting that the new armed response of the police in Nottingham is born out of concern of "turf wars between rival drug dealers".

I thought since illegal drug use is prohibted [like civilian handgun use], then why are all these Criminals busy fighting for turf for a supposedly non-exsistent market. Aren't senior cops noticing a trend here?

Like my Uni Mil/history lecturer says Never reinforce failure on the battlefield!! General Piers Reed

[This message has been edited by JoshM75 (edited October 22, 2000).]
 
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