BREN TEN by cz?

Badger, I notice you didn't address the availibilty of these two either. 10mm is much easier to find then 400CB. It is also easier to reload, and according to CorBons own numbers 400CB has nothing over 10mm:

400 Cor-Bon 170gr Bonded SP 1330fps/668ft/lbs 5.00in
10mm 180gr BondedCore SP 1320fps/696ft/lbs 4.60in

The 10mm has 400CB beat hands down in factory offerings by the company that invented 400CB. Pretty telling.

The major advantages of the 400 CB are as follows: As has already been mentioned, it operates at a lower pressure. That means less muzzle blast, noise, and a more flexible round.

What does lower pressure have to do with "flexibility"? And what do I care how loud it is? You already have ears on, so whats the point? Muzzle blast? come on. Neither one of these produces more or less noticable blast than the other.

The round is bottle-necked and will feed more reliably. It headspaces on about 1000% more surface area than the 10mm. Case trimming is not a headspace issue. Finding your brass on the ground is 1000% easier!!!

Feed more reliably then 100%? Whats that, 1000%?:rolleyes: These are non-issues, clearly not advantages, since my G20 produces one-hole groups all day.

The 180 grain bullet isn't effective in the 40, 10mm, or 400 CorBon anyways except for maybe hunting.

I don't think so. The most popular and widely used 10mm personal defense round is the Winchester 175ST, awfully close to 180 grains there. On what do you base this comment?
Click to expand...

The only real advantage 400CB has is 10mm-like performance in a 45ACP designed pistol (Breechface).



[Edited by BB on 04-18-2001 at 07:46 AM]
 
Badger, I do have chrono-ed info from a G30 400 CB and that is 30fps slower in the 135gr loadings from CorBon in my G29. I am not aware what the rifling was in the G30 barrel (Bar Sto).

Also every loading of the 400 CB didn't hold its seat in my P12, meaning that the trip up the feed ramp pushed the jhp a perceptible distance into the case. Nothing like compressing a load to spike the ole pressure there!:D I have not had any case failures in the P12.400CB, but it is something that has happened.

I do believe that CorBon advised against using bullets heavier then 165gr because of the length of the bullets over 165gr causes extreme pressure spikes. I believe Terry Murbach frequents here, perhaps he could confirm/deny my recollection as to the fact that I am not completely certain to the last statement.

I question the statement about 180gr bullet weights not being effective. . . by what are you basing this statement? That loading (180gr .400") offers the same secional density of the vaunted 230gr .45acp jhp. I am not aware of anyone who will claim that the .45acp loading
mentioned is not effective.

By that thought, a .355"@147gr driven driven to 1200+fps would not be an effective combination either while still be at the same SD of the 230gr .45acp loading. There's more then one 9x23 supporter who'd love to see someone bring out a 9x23 147gr@1300fps.

I have not seen any long barrel (6" or more) performance of the 400 CB, but I'd imagine that, with its bigger boiler room/powder volume, the performance would be impressive!

I am a fan of high performance defensive rounds and the 400CB qualifies as a high performance round in my book. It offers near 10mm performance with out some of the negative aspects of the 10mm Auto. I'd just like to see a bigger selection of factory loads, that's what will really make the 400 CB take off. Peter and Terry have done their homework in making a great round, now lets get a wider selection of loads at affordable prices and a few pistols chambered from the factory!

Derek
 
BB:

"I'll be fair and list the disadvantages: Factory load availability is, at present, much less. Capacity is reduced slightly although I don't think I'd be undergunned with 14 instead of 16 rounds of the stuff! Apparently there is PREJUDICE out there. Heck, at least I didn't try to tout the advantages of the 440 CorBon!!!"

How is this NOT addressing the load availability? 10mm reloads easier? Do you reload? Bottleneck vs. rimless pistol ammo... this is a no-brainer. You're wrong on that one. What pressure has to do with flexibility in reloading is that if you start out at a higher pressure, you have much less leeway to work loads up. That's why the 45 has turned into the 45 super, because it has so low a pressure you can push it very much and very safely.

1000% refers to the surface area that the case headspaces on. The 10mm headspaces on the rim which is only as thick as the case. The 400 CB headspaces on the bottleneck which means that you have about 1000% more surface area in contact for a positive seating.

I didn't say that the 180 grain was ineffective completely but that its use was limited to hunting. Basing your assertion on sales tends to suggest the 70gr 25acp loading is the most effective centerfire pistol cartridge out there!!! The 10mm is about 20 years old and the 400 CorBon??? You're prejudiced against the 400 CB IMHO because you like the 10mm so much.

I'm not saying that you should throw your gun away, only that the 400 CB is a superior round in many ways. I qualified my statement by listing the disadvantages of the 400 CB yet you refuse to accept any of my points about where the 10mm is inferior.
 
viesczy:

The Bar-Sto barrels, to my knowledge, are button rifled. Button rifling is about 5-10% lower in velocity generally than an equal length polygonal barrel. In truth, differences such as chamber size and bore condition as well as shot-to-shot differences might account for as much as 200fps variance in velocities gun to gun... all things being equal. RCBS studied this and the Speer #12 manual I have spells all this out in a table. I'd like not to get too much into this discussion as 50fps is a really not that much difference.

As far as your P-12 and the feeding troubles, sounds like a gun problem to me. The 357 Sig in purpose-designed guns doesn't have that problem and it's the same philosophy case.

I'll also say that the 230gr 45 load and 147gr 9mm load are ineffective compared to their lighter counterparts of 200 and 124 grains respectively. This is more of a preferrence issue though. I believe that higher velocity rounds expand more reliably. I've never tested this myself, but I have read numerous test results from Gun Tests and that is where I base what I have to say. 165 grain is the load I usually choose in the 40 cal.

The reason that I like the 400 so much is that you can have a 10mm and 45 in the same gun with only a barrel and, perhaps, spring change required. Similarly, I like the 357 Sig as you can have a 357 Magnum in a pistol and a 40 to boot with just an extra barrel. Who needs the 9x23 and 10mm?
 
Badger, first of all, no I dont reload. Factory ammo is cheaper and works just fine for me. However, I know several folks who do, and according to them it is harder to load bottlenecked rounds than it is straight-walled cartridges. The headspace issue- there isn't one. The fact is, while there may be a perceived or theoretical advantage for the bottlenecked cartridge in this area, the actual performance gain is infantismal if it exists at all. Again, a one-hole group is a one-hole group. Kinda hard to improve on that. Thats what I'm saying. If I have a straight walled 10mm that feeds 100% of the time, than how is a bottlenecked cartridge supposed to provide more reliable feeding? If I have a 10mm that shoots .5" at 25 yards, how is the better headspacing on the 400CB going to improve upon that? It's not. It's smoke and mirrors.

I understand now what you are saying in regard to flexibility. Point taken. But I'm one of those poor saps that doesn't reload.

I was NOT basing my assertation about 180 grain loads on sales, I was basing it on what experienced folks carry.

"You're prejudiced against the 400 CB IMHO because you like the 10mm so much."

Thats false. I'm not prejudiced at all against 400CB. If I had a 45ACP and wanted 10mm-like performance, I'd buy either a 400CB or 40Super barrel for it. But I have a 10mm, so why bother? There is no real world advantage either one of these has over 10mm, but they are great conversions for a 45ACP pistol. How is that prejudiced? You made the assertation that 400CB is better than 10mm, "hands down". The only real advantage that 400CB has is lower pressure so it's safer to work up loads when reloading (never mind the fact that I've not heard any complaints from the 10mm crowd in this regard), and the trade off is capacity. I'm still waiting for the reason it's the hands down winner.
 
BB, if I read you right, you love your 10mm... Correct? If so, why wouldn't a 10mm that would give you the ability to have a 45 barrel be better? The fact that you have a 10mm already and that the ammo is more available means you are likely to stick with that round, correct?

100% reliability is good, however not everybody experiences 100% reliability. If you do, you are happy. I contend that bottleneck cartridges are more reliable. This is a fact. All other things such as crimp and bullet design being equal, the bottleneck will feed in many situations that a straight case will not. Even with wadcutters.

YES, these are real-world advantages and not smoke and mirrors. The 10mm has the advantage of being first to the market and is therefore more available. It's also smaller in diameter which means one or maybe two more rounds. It has no more accuracy potential than the barrels and guns that chamber it.

On the flip side, the 400 CorBon has the advantage of common magazines, frames, and slides with the 45 ACP. It operates at a lower pressure. It headspaces on the shoulder which IS A REAL ADVANTAGE as I will attest to as a reloader and shooter. It also has much greater case capacity meaning that heavier bullets can be propelled to greater velocity at lower pressures. That's physics there, not smoke and mirrors.

Your gun shoots 10mm cartridges for .5" accuracy and 100% reliability. I'm not asking you to switch. Heck, I'd buy any oddball gun and case combination that gave me that. I am making the point that the 400 CorBon is superior in practical and concrete ways. That's why it was introduced despite the fact that another cartridge duplicates the ballistics. The cartridge simply makes sense.

There's a reason why the 357 Sig was a success while the 356 TSW and 9x23, 9mm Mauser, and 9mm Winchester Magnum were not despite the fact they predated the Sig round.. All had comparable ballistics. The 38-45 in its many forms and the 9mm AE (a more flexible round than the 40 Auto) are both the same concept. Because a round makes it big does not mean it's the best round for the job. Take the 41 AE it is essentially a 40 Auto but used the .410 diameter bullet rather than 10mm. It enjoyed a little market success but trimming the 10mm down was much more practical.

I'm not looking in a crystal ball, but I don't forsee the 400 CB as blowing the floundering 10mm out of the water anytime soon, but I do think it's the better round... just as I thought the Action Express rounds kicked the 357 Sig and 40 Auto's behinds.
 
I`m sorry but I have to say this. The 10mm has 14 factorys making a total of some 45 loads for it, the .400 Corbon has one maker producing,what,2 loads but the 10mm is "floundering"? The .400CB is a great way to get 10mm performance out of a .45 but to those who have a 10mm,well...heh we already have a 10mm. Bottle necked cartridges are fine and good but they`re no more reliable than a straight walled case. Yes they slip into the chamber a little easier but they also have less surface bearing on the magazine lips for guidance and due to their smaller front dia. they can more easily nose dive. 6 of one and half a dozen of the other here. They may be slightly easier to reload but the millions of rounds of 9mm,45ACP,.40,10mm,.380 and other straight walled rounds reloaded every year seem to come out okay and guys aren`t exactly jumping out of windows because they`re so hard to reload. ;)In short there`s not a thing wrong with .400CB and but it was created as and still is a wannabe that has a long way to go to catch up to the "floundering" 10mm. Marcus
 
Marcus:

You said it again: If they are functionally identical, why is the 10mm so much better than the 400 CB? It's not, and that was the point I was making. You agree they slip into the chamber eaiser... the very essence of reliability. You agree that they reload easier. The magazine lip contact is not a factor in anything I am aware of. It's got more contact area than the 9mm. The fact that there are many loads available for it does not make it a better round. By that logic, the 357 Sig must have REALLY sucked for a few years until enough loads were available... WAIT, it's the same round!

The 400 CorBon is no more a Wannabe round than the 357 sig, .223, or 220 Swift were in their opening days. The 10mm was a 'Wannabe' round when it first came out too.
 
Sorry, you are full of crap. By every objective measure .400 Cor-Bon is inferior to 10mm Auto.

How's that for blunt? :D

Can .400 Cor-Bon handle 180-220gr bullets? NO (and that's according to Cor-Bon). So much for .400 Cor-Bon as an even remotely serious hunting caliber.

Is it more powerful than 10mm? NO (Not even with Cor-Bon's loads!!!)

Is it harder to reload? YES

Does more than 1 company make ammo for it? NO

Does it have less magazine capacity than 10mm? YES (especially when it doesn't work in a Glock double-stack mag)

Is .400 Cor-Bon more feed reliable? NO (how can it be if my Glock 20 never miss-feeds? :D )

Can you get practice ammo for .400 Cor-Bon for $13 a box? NO (but you can with 10mm... http://www.ammoman.com )

I mean, Hell, what's LEFT?!?
 
BadgerArms,please read my message again. I didn`t say the .400CB *was* better at anything. I gave the benefit of the doubt and said it *may* be. I remain unconvinced. The .400CB is a wannabe because it was *specifically designed* to mimic the 10mm. The biggest shame of all is that Corbon felt it necessary to reduce the power of all their 10mm ammo to make the .400CB look better. Marcus
 
OK, since CZ makes the CZ-97 in .45 ACP and since the 400 Cor-Bon is basically a necked-down .45 ACP, how about a 400 Cor-Bon barrel for the '97? Is there such a thing yet?

BTW I'm following this 400 CB vs. 10mm discussion with some interest. Apparently the Cor-Bon round creates lower pressures than the 10mm, but there's still the fact that bullets heavier than 170 grains are (curiously) not used in any factory loading of this ammo. Also, it appears significant to me that Cor-Bon's published loading data for this round only goes to 180 grains, and this with a CAST bullet. (See Cor-Bon's website at http://www.corbon.com.)

With this in mind, and since I've always been suspicious of published velocity figures out of "test barrels", I remain unconvinced of the superiority of the 400 Cor-Bon over the 10mm--except for, possibly, the pressure issue.

Regards---
 
I won't respond to Castle's post for fear of being called inflamatory myself. I will, however, defend the 400CB from a bullet weight point of view. There is no mythical limit to the CorBon's bullet weight. Since it's a proprietary round and CorBon has obvious theories on the superiority of lightweight loads, they don't recommend heavier bullets. The greater case capacity means more flexibility. The 400CB is of identical length but a fatter cartridge. CorBon limits the pressure on their guns because the 45acp is loaded to such lower pressures and guns designed for it weren't designed for 10mm pressure. All things being equal, the 10mm is INFERIOR to the 400CorBon.

Now, for those of you who don't reload or can't understand how bigger is better in this respect, please don't strain yourselves trying to understand all of this.

YES, the 10mm runs at higher pressures and therefore yields greater velocity.

YES, the 10mm is available in more loads in more varying bullet weights than the 400.

YES, being slightly smaller in diameter, you will be able to get ONE OR TWO more rounds into a gun.

YES, the 10mm is AS RELIABLE as any straight walled cartridge.

YES, there are some out there who can shoot one hole groups at 1000 yards with their 10mm's.

NO, none of these things mean that the 10mm is superior.

NO, bottle-necked cartridges are NOT harder to reload than straight walled cases.

NO, heavier bullets will not cause your gun to blow up.

NO, the 400 CorBon will probably not overtake the 10mm in popularity. There is something to be said for being first on the market.

I've had enough of this thread. Those who are objective can understand why. I'm getting too old for this crap. Flame away, I'll let the thread die without further input from me.
 
My final salvo...

"All things being equal, the 10mm is INFERIOR to the 400CorBon."

You must use some strange kind of math:

Better ballistics? Nope.
Better reliability? You ASSUME so without presenting evidence.
Better availability? Nope. Far worse, in fact.
More rounds in the magazine? Nope (less, actually).
Lower pressure? Sure, but so what? You ASSUME that this provides some benefit that you don't explain.
Easier to reload? Nope, it's harder. I mean, how do you get simpler than putting a bullet in a straight-walled case? Oh yeah, brass is less available too.

"NO, heavier bullets will not cause your gun to blow up."
Of course not, at least when you aren't making up your own load data for bullets over... oh wait, that's what you DO have to do for .400 Cor-Bon, never mind... :D

.400 Cor-Bon is a neat way to get near-10mm performance from a .45 ACP-designed platform... at least with lighter bullets. That doesn't mean that it *sucks* by any stretch. But I ask again, what the heck makes .400 Cor-Bon *superior*? Does anyone have any actual EVIDENCE of any consequence that this is the case?

"I won't respond to Castle's post for fear of being called inflamatory myself"

Yeah, you gotta watch out for those smiley-face laden posts... they are a sure sign of personal hostility. Green toothy grins are a POSITIVE sign of a genuine desire to be a big bad meanie and NEVER indicate that the previous remarks were TONGUE-IN-CHEEK :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Damn, man, you need some codeine? I got some left over from having my wisdom teeth removed Friday. We could just doze off, drool on ourselves, and forget this argument ever happened... or what our names are... or... uh... what was this post for again8ujt9i43pjg45iyh26plk2;;

[DISCLAIMER: I am not *really* offering somebody my prescription drugs to use illegaly.]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top