BREN TEN by cz?

T

tog

New member
why doesn't cz make a bren ten? wasn't it the same design?
i for one would get one in a heartbeat
could you get a cz75 in 40 auto and get a barrel for 10mm and still use the same mags?
whatever happened to triton coming out with their bren ten project?
i know witness makes their cz clone in 10mm but i want cz quality, have not been impressed with the witnesses i have seen (haven't shot one though, they might be better than they look to be made)
does cz hace any plans for this in the future or are they going to stay on the bandwagon and keep introducing smaller ccw type guns? (which i have little use for) i wish some of these manufacturers would put out more than one basic design of pistol
wouldn't it be cool if glock came along with a new design?
or sig or any other make for that matter?
seen pictures of the bren ten but never held one, but i too would like to have one if the fit of the grip was half as good as on my cz75
 
That`s a good question. A 10mm CZ would have to be built on the CZ-97 platform though. I checked one out in .45 almost sure I`d buy it but I was disappointed. The grip was huge and the trigger reach especially in DA was VERY LONG (and I have large hands with long fingers). Maybe I`m spoiled by my cocobolo Hogue gripped CZ-75 but the 97 felt like an ergonomic 2x4 in comparison. It was tight but there were several finish flaws and the walnut grips looked for all the world like brown plastic. I ended up ordering a Witness in 10mm and I`m really pleased with it so far. The grip is larger than my 75 but very comfy and managable and the trigger reach is just a hair longer. Ergonomically it`s got it all over the CZ-97. The finish is nice and even and lockup and slide fit are good and tight. Admittedly the CZ-97`s DA trigger pull was much better but it was offset by the reach issue. So far it doesn`t seem to be quite as accurate as my CZ but I kinda expected that. Take a close look at em a Witness 10mm might fit the bill for ya. Marcus
 
It wasn't the same design, it was BASED on the CZ 75. Also, CZ will probably not come out with a 10mm as the 10mm is essentially dead. You'd be better off getting a CZ 97 and either fitting a 10mm barrel and extractor on it or just putting a 400 CorBon barrel on. This would be the better route as the 400 CorBon is the better round, hands down.

With the CZ97 in 10mm, you might also need to use a Wittness 10mm magazine or have the feed lips and body altered on a CZ 97 mag. Sounds like too much of a hassle.
 
I disagree that 400 Corbon is better. More powerful? Maybe. But you sacrifice capacity for a slightly more powerful round that is pretty hard to come by even in 10mm standards.
 
CZ could never make a Bren Ten, any more than Chrysler could make a Ford. Bren Ten was another company before going under. The Bren Ten was based on the CZ-75 design, partially based on Jeff Cooper's endorsement of the design. The grips are not as slim as the CZ, it is a larger and clumsier weapon.
Full power 10mm rounds are hard to find. The cartridges availible are loaded to .40 S&W levels.
And Badger, I believe the .40 Triton Super has more energy than the .400 Corbon and the 10mm.
 
Full power 10mm rounds are hard to find. The cartridges availible are loaded to .40 S&W levels.
Click to expand...

Wrong. Winchester, Geogia Arms, Triton, CorBon, Pro Load 10mm are WAY above 40S&W levels, and readily availible on every mailorder website I know of.
 
I second BB's reply about the 400 CorBon not being better then the 10mm.

Comparing my P12 in 400CB and my G29 with the same weight loads from CorBon, the 135gr 400CB is nearly 80fps slower then the 10mm variant! This from a load that is listed from the factory at 50fps faster!

I do believe that the 400 CB is a good round though, lower pressure then the 10mm. That means easier on the ears. How much easier if the gun is discharged in someplace with hard echoey surfaces? I don't want to be the person who gives the 1st hand account! :D Depending on what is said to me, I am deaf enough!

The greatest advantage of the P12 in 400 CB over the G29 is the fact that there's 12 rounds in the standard mag as compared to 10 in the G29. Of course I tote my G20 15 round mags as a back up!

Derek
 
I have to agree with Marcus, the Witness has the edge, ergonomically, over the CZ97. I would not hesitate to say, though, that the CZ is better built and will likely last a lot longer.(Don't want to get kicked-off of the CZ board.:D)

If you search under the user name 'Triton Cartridge', you will find the lengthy thread on why they had to drop the Bren Ten project. Too bad, but I completely understand it.
 
Croyance wrote:
The Bren Ten was based on the CZ-75 design, partially based on Jeff Cooper's endorsement of the design. The grips are not as slim as the CZ, it is a larger and clumsier weapon
Click to expand...

Gotta take exception to that one. I own a Bren and it's my everyday carry weapon. The grips are slimmer than a CZ's by a wide margin. It's a single stack.

Clumsier? No. It's a bigger pistol, hence the concommitant requirements, but I wouldn't say clumsier. The entire pistol is thinner than a CZ, and easier to conceal from that standpoint, but more difficult because of it's longer grip and barrel.

Jeff Cooper didn't just endorse the design, he was the design consultant, and took many things from other pistols that he thought would create the best combat pistol out there. He liked the CZ frame, (Well, the OLD CZ frame. The new backstrap design of the CZ is totally unlike the Bren. The Witness is more comparable.) but the slide is taken from a SIG P210. The barrel bushing idea is from a 1911, and there are other features borrowed from other pistols. Then he added those things that he felt were necessary for a combat pistol: The mag lips were designed to be able to remove the bushing; the recoil guide's tip is a screwdriver; the mag release can be set for drop-free or non; beveled magazine well; polished feed ramp; trigger job to give it one of the crispest triggers I have ever shot; adjustable sights.

All these things were his ideas. I think that's a little more than an "endorsement."

Full power 10mm rounds are hard to find. The cartridges availible are loaded to .40 S&W levels. And Badger, I believe the .40 Triton Super has more energy than the .400 Corbon and the 10mm.
Click to expand...

No again. 10mm isn't hard to find except where people keep saying the 10mm is a dead cartridge. Georgia Arms, Winchester, and others all make full-power loads for the 10, loads that were designed for the 10mm. (Which are actually just the standard 10mm load. They're not any kind of +p design.)
--------------------------------------------

I could see Tanfoglio making the Bren, but not CZ. Their frame design is now to far away from the Bren to make an easy transition.
 
[myth]The cartridges availible are loaded to .40 S&W levels.[/myth] ;)
Click to expand...

Even common ol' CCI Blazer 10mm is throwing a 200gr bullet as fast or faster than .40 can move a 180gr one. Mild 10mm 180gr FMJ usually moves 50-100fps faster than the same manufacturer's .40 ball offerings. Federal offers the sluggish 180gr Hydrashok, yes, but they also catalog much warmer 10mm stuff. There's a lot of good 10mm offerings out there, but among folks who don't have one, this "it's all loaded to .40 levels, anyway" myth just won't die.
 
Quote: "....the 400 CorBon is the better round, hands down."

Huh? Who's hands? As per Cor-Bon, the bullet weights for this cartridge start at 135 grains and shoot all the way up to......165 grains. By my calcultations, that's 30 whole grains. The 10mm has _at least_ as much power and no such weight restrictions.

Quote: "...Full power 10mm rounds are hard to find. The cartridges availible are loaded to .40 S&W levels."

Hmm. The other day I was buying some "40 S&W level" 10mm. It was a box of Federal 155gr Hi-Shok. The box flap noted a velocity of 1,330 fps. Out of curiosity, I then picked up a box of Federal 155gr Hi-Shok 40 S&W, it's box flap listed something in the 1,100 fps range. Strange, when I subtracted the 40 S&W velocity from the 10mm velocity, I had 200 fps left, shouldn't there have been zero fps left? I thought they was just the same. (I will, however, concede the 40 S&W'ness of the 180 gr Hydra-shok 10mm. I think baby-poop shoots almost as fast as that stuff.)
 
Triton has apparently backed out of re-introducing the Bren Ten. Here is their press release on this topic from a few months ago:




<<<Triton Cartridge News Release

February 2001: Bren 10 Project Update


For the past few years, Triton has been considered the reintroduction of the Bren 10. With a project such as the Bren 10, there were many factors that had to be analyzed thoroughly. These considerations ranged from researching intellectual property, design concerns, engineering interests, legal costs, and lastly, market viability.

While we have received numerous mailings and phone calls supporting the project, we have determined that it is in the best interests of our customers and investors to continue focusing on production of the finest ammunition available. Therefore, Triton Cartridge Corp. regrets to announce that the conclusion of our market research forces us to abandon the Bren 10 project.

Triton would like to thank those who showed continued support for Triton, in both the Ammunition and the Bren 10 arenas. We value your support and understanding in this decision.



For more information, contact David Schmidbauer at 1-800-861-3362 >>>
 
Joegerardi,I`m curious,you say the Bren is *slimmer* than the CZ-75 in both grip and slide? Would you mind posting some measurments? I don`t doubt you it`s just that I`m both a CZ and Bren fan from way back and I`ve never heard that before. The CZ-75 is extremely slim for a fullsize pistol, especially a hi cap one so the Bren must have used some neat engineering to be even slimmer. Also I agree that Jeff Cooper did add some neat features to the CZ-75 design ( I especially like the raised sight base that extends the slide serrations for more gripping area,wish my Witness 10mm had that) but the Sig 210 inspired slide was used on the CZ before Jeff started tinkering. It`s a shame Triton couldn`t make a go of it and bring back the BrenX but the Witness 10mm is a decent replacement. Many of the die hard 10mm guys on the 10mm sites and such have one and have nothing but good to say about em. Here`s pics of the players for those who don`t have a score card. ;) Marcus
GT05.jpg
jay-w01.jpg
 
I don't know a lot about the Bren Ten except that it was before my time; I just want to point out that I don't think he's saying the Bren is slimmer than a CZ-75, but that it's slimmer than the CZ-97. He may have been talking about the 10mm Witness, but I don't think he was referring to a 9mm.
 
I'll set up the arguments agains the 400 CorBon and knock them down:

"Comparing my P12 in 400CB and my G29 with the same weight loads from CorBon, the 135gr 400CB is nearly 80fps slower then the 10mm variant! This from a load that is listed from the factory at 50fps faster!" Uh, what the heck are you trying to say here? Your sample size of, uh, two different types of guns with different types of rifling (button vs. polygonal) and different barrel lengths (3.5" vs. 3.78") is lacking a bit. Round-to-round standard deviation will explain the difference completely.

"I disagree that 400 Corbon is better. More powerful? Maybe. But you sacrifice capacity for a slightly more powerful round that is pretty hard to come by even in 10mm standards." Capacity difference is only, at most, one round or two in some higher capacity guns. It's basically the same capacity as the 45. I'll give you this one.

"Huh? Who's hands? As per Cor-Bon, the bullet weights for this cartridge start at 135 grains and shoot all the way up to......165 grains. By my calcultations, that's 30 whole grains. The 10mm has _at least_ as much power and no such weight restrictions." The 400 CorBon is available in more factory loads than the 10mm was at this point in its life. Give it a little time. Better yet, reload! The 180 grain bullet isn't effective in the 40, 10mm, or 400 CorBon anyways except for maybe hunting. And besides, there are no limitations on bullet weight, only on cases available to those poor saps who choose not to reload. Sorry.

The major advantages of the 400 CB are as follows: As has already been mentioned, it operates at a lower pressure. That means less muzzle blast, noise, and a more flexible round. The round is bottle-necked and will feed more reliably. It headspaces on about 1000% more surface area than the 10mm. Case trimming is not a headspace issue. Finding your brass on the ground is 1000% easier!!!

I'll be fair and list the disadvantages: Factory load availability is, at present, much less. Capacity is reduced slightly although I don't think I'd be undergunned with 14 instead of 16 rounds of the stuff! Apparently there is PREJUDICE out there. Heck, at least I didn't try to tout the advantages of the 440 CorBon!!!
 
Badger,

I believe Cor-Bon themselves were not recommending bullets heavier than 165gr for the 400CB, I could be wrong. It might be worth checking into if you're reloading for that round.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top