Brand new S&W 460 already has problems

[BBarn]

Good first hand information about the S&W X Frame and identical ammo by Road Clam above in post #36. I would consider it the best and most accurate info in this thread.

The issues that can surface with operating pressures more than 50% above other magnum revolver cartridges must be considered and accommodated.

 

[P Flados]

The factory ammo runs at a higher pressure than most revolver ammo.

Looking at the brass, I would say that the factory ammo has bulged the cylinders just ahead of the web. At rear of the cylinder, the chamber is still the original size making it very hard to pull out the brass that is expanding ahead of the web.

If factory ammo did bulge each cylinder, my first guess would be that the cylinder heat treat left it too soft. It is not unheard of. Other revolver makers have had heat treat problems where cylinders would bulge with high pressure ammo.

The other problem that could bulge cylinders is over-pressure ammo. With this gun, I would expect really bad looking primers if the ammo was too hot.

If this were an older gun, I would chalk it up to stretch over time and would consider polishing out the "tighter" region at the rear. With a new gun, and factory ammo, I would have sent them some spent casings with the gun and asked for a new cylinder.

 

[DirtyHarold]

The factory ammo runs at a higher pressure than most revolver ammo.



Looking at the brass, I would say that the factory ammo has bulged the cylinders just ahead of the web. At rear of the cylinder, the chamber is still the original size making it very hard to pull out the brass that is expanding ahead of the web.



If factory ammo did bulge each cylinder, my first guess would be that the cylinder heat treat left it too soft. It is not unheard of. Other revolver makers have had heat treat problems where cylinders would bulge with high pressure ammo.



The other problem that could bulge cylinders is over-pressure ammo. With this gun, I would expect really bad looking primers if the ammo was too hot.



If this were an older gun, I would chalk it up to stretch over time and would consider polishing out the "tighter" region at the rear. With a new gun, and factory ammo, I would have sent them some spent casings with the gun and asked for a new cylinder.

But you would be okay with the fact that the cylinder doesn’t rotate causing failure to go bang?

All you people seem to care about is the brass not extracting. That’s not even the biggest problem.


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[Carmady]

The devil made me do it.

 

[Groundhog34]

My experience as of late is "PC" means piece of crap. The performance center no longer produces quality work. My last PC pistol had to be returned twice for the same issue. I finally sold it back to the dealer I got it from. He was aware of the issues. I think he returned it to S&W.

 

[LineStretcher]

My experience as of late is "PC" means piece of crap. The performance center no longer produces quality work. My last PC pistol had to be returned twice for the same issue. I finally sold it back to the dealer I got it from. He was aware of the issues. I think he returned it to S&W.

I have a relatively new PC 686 and it shoots both 357 Mag and 38 Special wonderfully. So to say that PC is crap just simply is not true. The majority of the differences are in the trigger area so how this problem becomes a performance center problem is beyond me.

I have a 460 XVR with the 8 3/8 barrel and it also shoots 45 Schofield, 45LC, 454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum fine. I do run a brush through it and clean the cylinder face before I change cartridges.

My Governor did present issues with cylinder rotation after firing .410 2-1/2" shotgun shells in it but I resolved that with a good cleaning. I now know that problem exists and can live with it.

DirtyHarrold has sent his gun back because he and I both agree that something is not right. Rather than argue over points of interest that we take stands on, why don't we just take a wait and see attitude and maybe learn something.

 

[44 AMP]

By shooting 45LC you're jumping the bullet over .500" into the forcing cone, adding unnecessary errosion on your precision cylinder casing bores.

Seems to me if the OP's chambers were as "precision" as we would expect, he wouldn't have extraction issues.

If shooting a few .45 Colt erodes your cylinder, I suggest you get one made of steel, not hard cheese...

Now, residue from firing the shorter cased ammo is another matter. Carbon, unburnt powder, lead, bullet lube, etc, left behind on cylinder walls from the shorter case can and often will cause extraction problems when firing the longer case ammo. The solution is clean the chambers, or only use the longer cases.

If cases don't extract from hand pressure alone, there is something wrong either with the gun (dirty, or rough chamber) or the ammo (too HOT!).

I don't care if it is factory ammo, if you need a rod/dowel to poke out the empties, the ammo is too hot for use in YOUR gun.

Maybe S&W's quality is crap these days, or maybe you got the one "lemon" that gets past QC once in a while. I don't know. But since the OP's gun has other issues in addition to extraction, it definitely needs to go back.

These huge "hyper-magnum" pistols OUGHT to be as perfect as S&W can make them, fit, finish AND FUNCTION. It's what I would expect, especially for what they cost. Always a disappointment when they fail to live up to their reputation.

Hope they fix your gun right, THIS time.
Good Luck

 

[labnoti]

Firstly, don't use pliers to pull cases out, use a brass rod or wooden dowel and a hammer and tap them out gently. You're asking for a scratched up gun using pliers.

Anyway, you don't know how much it was shot at the factory and it's best to know you've cleaned the chambers than to go through the process of contacting and sending it back to S&W only for them to tell you the chambers were dirty.

Do it to CYA and if after you've cleaned it and extraction is still an issue, you can tell them you had thoroughly cleaned those chambers before shooting it.

If the hand isn't rotating the cylinder when the hammer is being pulled back, you have problems. Send it back.

Yes, but don't pound the brass if the only thing holding the cylinder is the crane/yoke, because it will bend. Support the cylinder on it's face. It might be safest to remove the cylinder so you don't bend the crane.


Second comment is S&W test fires the gun once. One time. They don't even check all the cylinders. It's easy to see because they don't clean the marks on the cylinder face afterward.

Next, S&W does not read anything you send them. They just don't. They've never read anything I sent them. Anything. Don't worry about justifying your concern to them because they don't care or listen no matter how justified or unjustified you are. They're just low-wage clerks that click forms on a screen.

I've seen other people show papers with photographs, arrows and large print indicating the issues they sent in with their guns. S&W totally ignored it. What they do is check the gun with their procedure, and if it passes, they send it back. If they find something, they replace parts.

The people who receive and process the guns aren't gunsmiths. They're just low-wage assembly workers. For sure they don't care about anything the clerks put on the forms in the computer. They just process the guns through their procedures. They certainly don't think of the guns as a weapon that anybody is going to use in combat in defense of their life. They just see it as anything else, like a sewing machine or a meat slicer. It makes no difference to them.

They also do not talk or correspond with you after receiving the gun. If they have any questions, they must just consider it an unsolved mystery and send the gun back to you. The idea of calling or writing you never occurs to them. Or more likely, they just never have questions because they're just following a procedure and the kind of thoughts that would cause them to question anything never come up.

I am speaking from good experience with present-day S&W revolver customer service. I am about to send a new revolver back to S&W for the 10th time in less than a year. No, it's not the same revolver as the previous ten, but I have had to send a single revolver in two and three times.

 

[disseminator]

Next, S&W does not read anything you send them. They just don't. They've never read anything I sent them. Anything. Don't worry about justifying your concern to them because they don't care or listen no matter how justified or unjustified you are. They're just low-wage clerks that click forms on a screen.

I've seen other people show papers with photographs, arrows and large print indicating the issues they sent in with their guns. S&W totally ignored it. What they do is check the gun with their procedure, and if it passes, they send it back. If they find something, they replace parts.

The people who receive and process the guns aren't gunsmiths. They're just low-wage assembly workers. For sure they don't care about anything the clerks put on the forms in the computer. They just process the guns through their procedures. They certainly don't think of the guns as a weapon that anybody is going to use in combat in defense of their life. They just see it as anything else, like a sewing machine or a meat slicer. It makes no difference to them.

They also do not talk or correspond with you after receiving the gun. If they have any questions, they must just consider it an unsolved mystery and send the gun back to you. The idea of calling or writing you never occurs to them. Or more likely, they just never have questions because they're just following a procedure and the kind of thoughts that would cause them to question anything never come up.

I am speaking from good experience with present-day S&W revolver customer service. I am about to send a new revolver back to S&W for the 10th time in less than a year. No, it's not the same revolver as the previous ten, but I have had to send a single revolver in two and three times.

Well, I can see that you have had a bad experience with S&W. I can only imagine how many guns you must buy to have to send ten of them back for service.

As a counter point, I bought a 625JM a year or two ago and the machining on the barrel was really bad and it had a bad can't and was misfiring in double action as well.

Pretty bad as far as QC is concerned. I called S&W and told them that while the guns was mostly functional, I was un-impressed with the barrel condition and wondered what they could do for me. They payed shipping both ways and gave me everything I asked for. I had my gun back in hand in just over two weeks and it's now 100%.

Oh, and the girl from S&W specifically told me to write a note detailing my issues and include it in the box.

They did me right.

Whether it should have ever left the factory that way is another topic....

 

[silvermane_1]

Lots of ideas how to fix the issue here, but I'm with Onward Illusion. If this were a Taurus many of us (myself included) would be railing about Taurus quality. Different ammo shouldn't be needed to test. That thing should digest whatever came off a shelf.

I'd send it back to S&W, describe what is happening and tell them not to send it back until all issues are fixed, if they aren't you want a refund.

That is not a cheap gun, I'd expect it to function without issue out of the box as well. What is the hell are gun manufacturers dumping on us anymore? Maybe Millenials think this is how its supposed to be but we shouldn't accept it.

*sigh* "Millenial think" has absolutely nothing to do with it, this is what happens when workmanship/craftsmanship/QC takes "the very back seat of the bus" to maximization of profit margins there 2wheelwander, now with that said DirtyHarold send that 460 PC back to S&W and if they don't "make it right" demand a refund and buy a different brand, or go with a 454 in a Ruger SRH or one of the Ruger distributor exclusive lines.

 

[buck460XVR]

*sigh* "Millenial think" has absolutely nothing to do with it, this is what happens when workmanship/craftsmanship/QC takes "the very back seat of the bus" to maximization of profit margins there 2wheelwander, now with that said DirtyHarold send that 460 PC back to S&W and if they don't "make it right" demand a refund and buy a different brand, or go with a 454 in a Ruger SRH or one of the Ruger distributor exclusive lines.

One only has to look in this same sub-forum to see Ruger has it's own problems....https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601365

The reason S&W's .460 has become so much more popular in it's short life span as compared to .454 in a Ruger Frame is shoot-ability. While the X-Frame is a pleasant experience with full house .460 loads, the Ruger is Brutal in comparison with the slightly less powerful .454. The S&W has a lifetime warranty, give S&W the chance to make it right. The OP sent the gun in for a bad barrel finish and got it back and was happy with what was done. Apparently he hadn't shot the gun before sending the gun back for the cosmetic issue. Had he, and told S&W about the chamber issues too the first time, maybe he would still be happy.

I JUST got this gun back on Friday from S&W after sending it in the first time because the barrel finish quality was terrible. They sent it back with a new barrel, I was happy,

Take your car in for a brake job, and if they don't find that the trunk latch doesn't always work, who's fault is it? Should S&W had found the sticky extraction issue? I dunno. Could be the ammo they use for the two test shots didn't exhibit sticky extraction. Could be the fact that two empties always extract easier than 5. Again, I'm betting the rough action is because of the cases dragging on the recoil shield after firing. BTDT. I don't like Hornady brass in .460, never had good results from reloading it. Never had issues with factory 200s tho. The fact that the OP thought to use a pair of pliers to remove the spent brass tells me of a unfamiliarity with revolvers and how they work. While this did not contribute to the sticky brass, it may have had other consequences.

I hope when the revolver comes back, the OP is happy and the issue resolved. I love my .460, and am impressed with it's accuracy every time I shoot it. It is however, a whole different animal than most other handgun calibers, and I shoot a lot of others. Some of the P.C. models are known for tight throats, which can result in higher pressure and sticky extraction. While I have good luck reloading Starline brass several times for my .460, I don't reload Hornady brass more than twice.....period, because of it's tendency for case head separation, exactly where the bulge is on the OPs ammo. The .460 is not like your family mini-van. It's more like a hopped up muscle car with a High Compression engine.....

 

[stinkeypete]

Harold, regarding the cylinder not turning..

Can we see a picture of your primers?
Primers can back out from flush and drag. That’s an ammunition flaw.

Of greatest concern is the swollen brass. That could be a danger sign of either too hot a load or improper manufacture of the cylinder. The entire casing could be backing out and I’ve never seen that.

The reason I am not thinking that the cylinder not revolving is not important is that it protects you from shooting an entire cylinder in what I personally think is an unsafe overpressure situation.

 

[DirtyHarold]

Harold, regarding the cylinder not turning..



Can we see a picture of your primers?

Primers can back out from flush and drag. That’s an ammunition flaw.



Of greatest concern is the swollen brass. That could be a danger sign of either too hot a load or improper manufacture of the cylinder. The entire casing could be backing out and I’ve never seen that.



The reason I am not thinking that the cylinder not revolving is not important is that it protects you from shooting an entire cylinder in what I personally think is an unsafe overpressure situation.

I don’t have pictures of the primers but none backed out some have flattened out pretty good but they’re all still flush with the case. Not all of them have flattened out.


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[rodfac]

Clean your chambers. Cordless drill, brass brush, and use some Ed's Red cleaner while doing it. If after that you're still having extraction issues, send it back to S&W.

Good advice....but...the cylinders must be completely free of oil prior to firing.

Oil allows the case to set back against the recoil shield which may tie up the gun. High pressure cartridges are more prone to this than say a .38 Spl., but I've had it happen with a .45 Colt when I was less than attentive during cleaning.

After cleaning, and before firing, wipe the cylinder chambers out with an alcohol soaked patch, followed by a dry one. Years ago, this information was in the printed S&W owner's manual.

If the chambers are indeed scratched or retain tool marks from the manuf. process, you can smooth them up with a tight fitting patch on a cleaning jag thoroughly soaked with JB Bore Paste, or the Remington equivalent. Use a low speed hand drill and keep that paste away from the chamber mouths, it'll round them off and may adversely affect accuracy.

 

[4V50 Gary]

I presume that the cylinder rotates when empty?

As suggested, it could be the firing pin being stuck in the primer. Normally after the trigger is released, the hammer resets and is pushed back by the seat of the rebound slide.

I'm also wondering if the hand is failing to come out of the window to engage the notches of the extractor?

Got dummy rounds? Check the barrel cylinder gap between the cylinder face and the forcing cone. Then with the dummies check the space between the base of the dummy and the recoil shield.

I don't have any reloading handbooks in front of me. What are the case dimensions for the .460 and the 45 Long Colt?

 

[buck460XVR]

Good advice....but...the cylinders must be completely free of oil prior to firing.

Oil allows the case to set back against the recoil shield which may tie up the gun. High pressure cartridges are more prone to this than say a .38 Spl., but I've had it happen with a .45 Colt when I was less than attentive during cleaning.

After cleaning, and before firing, wipe the cylinder chambers out with an alcohol soaked patch, followed by a dry one. Years ago, this information was in the printed S&W owner's manual.

Kinda what I've been trying to say from the start........

Sometimes when extraction is sticky, the cases are pushed back against the recoil shield and because they don't slide forward again, drag on the recoil shield and make the action feel like your explanation.

Again if the action is smooth with the chamber empty and before firing any rounds, I'm gonna stick with my first guess and say the sticky cases are rubbing against the recoil shield after firing and making the action hard/rough. I'm saying this from experience. I've found with my .460 that any excess oil in the chamber or excess polish on the cases will give the same appearance on the case walls(not the scratches)after firing as your picture shows. The heat produced tends to burn it off and this too can add to sticky extraction.

....as I said....BTDT. I'm not taking the WAG like many of the others are here. The combination of sticky extraction and the difficulty in moving the action after firing pretty much tells me(after many thousands of rounds thru a .460) what's going on unless the extractor rod has loosened, which does happen often unless locktite is applied with .460s. I check mine every time I load the cylinder.

Protruding primers in a revolver after the shot is usually caused by too little pressure. Primers in revolvers generally always get pushed out a tad upon firing, but get pushed back in flush, when the case hits the recoil shield. The firing pin is not going to "stick" in the primer unless the primer has been pierced. As for the hand not engaging in the notches? I'm thinking there'd be a serious timing issue when the gun is fired and a good chance of the cylinder being blown off....not just the action getting rough.