BP percussion hunting rifle question(s)

Something to ponder. The Lyman is made by Investarms in Italy. The Cabelas Traditional Hawken is made by Investarms too.
They both have the same triggers,locks,barrel(Cabelas gun is shorter barrel but the same barrel steel and a 1-48 twist rifling by the same Manufacturer) tang ect ect.

The Hawken with the 1-48 twist is meant to shoot both the ball and the conical. Anomaly is....the reality of that works like this....
One 1-48 will shoot both the ball and the conical well. One other will shoot the ball but not the conical or shoot the conical but not the ball. Some don't shoot either the ball or the conical well. Strange anomaly fer rifles with the same rifling in all of them. Never heard of anyone that figgered it out why neither. Just the way it is. A gamble.

Thompson Centers Hawken,Renegade ect.ect. with 1-48 is the same. Might shoot both ball and conical or may not.

I have an old Investarms Hawken in 50cal. and the 1-48 twist in the barrel that shoots both the ball and the conical real well. Good old gun it is and puts both projectiles in a grapefruit size groups at 200 paces or further. Any lead slug conical I shove down the bore shoots real well. Has the chrome lined bore the Investarms rifles had a while back. Good thing to have since that chrome lined fights off rust well. When Cabelas sucked up most all the Investarms Hawkens the chrome line went away. Cheapens the cost and profits fer the retalers.
I've sold plenty of the Hawkens back when I had my Muzzleloader shop. I sold cheap both the Lymans Great Plains and the Hawkens.....sometimes at my cost plus what shipping I paid. Hombres would come back to buy loadin stuff and all. Just sayin.....I know the rifles.

The Investarms (Hawken and Great Plains Rifle) are a little rougher than the Thompson Center Side locks. The TC side locks are a lkittle more refined in fit and all like locks and triggers.

There are Companys that sell high quality locks and triggers fer the rifles (both the TC and the Investarms) that make a difference.

Old reports about the rifles and mishaps like barrel bulges and ruptures were mostly caused by bad loading practices and......FFFg powder and the heavy conicals. The FFg powder is a better choice than FFFg fer the rifles and their barrel steel where the heavy conicals are concerned.

The loading of 50cal. conicals is safest when the 80gr. powder charge is considered the max. The guns can take more powder but(like the 54 or 58cal)...why push the envelope if yer not huntin the big bears or elk? The 50cal.balls will do 500ft/lbs at 100 yards and the conicals will do 1,000ft/lbs at the 100 yards. The balls doin 1,800 ft/sec and the conicals doin 1,400ft/sec. approx. with 90-100gr.FFg powder.

The 50cal. Italian rifles like the Lyman and the Cabelas Traditional Hawken have a bore .005 in. bigger than the American rifles like the Thompson Center side locks.
That means the Italian guns like the .495 balls over the .490 balls and the same fer the conicals as they like bigger ones too(bigger by .005's).
The 54cal. Italians like the .535 balls over the .530 balls and the thicker patches on the .530 balls don't work as well as one may thunk. Thicker lead instead of thicker cloth is best.
The conicals fer the Italians 50cal. guns like to be sized .502-.503(different guns may vary) to load straight so they shoot straight. That size will mostly stay put in the barrels. The standard .500 conicals can be a lil loose and need checked with the ramrods while hunting and all in the Italian rifles.
If the conicals aren't loaded straight they don't shoot straight.

Anyway....I favor the Pedersoli rifles like the Tryon rifles or the newer Hawkens. Good quality and chrome lined bores fer both I thunk. I have two of the Tryon Pedersoli rifles and one is old and shot a lot. Really accurate with the balls and it's slow twist in 54cal which is really a 53 cal. and uses the .525 balls not the .530 or .520 balls. Top notch triggers and locks too.

Why not go the extra money and end up with a family heirloom(not sayin the cheaper rifles can't be an heirloom).

A real sleeper is the Pedersoli Rolling Block rifles in muzzleloader. Look like the Remington Rolling Blocks but are muzzleloaders and have either octagon or round barrels. I like the octagon barrels ones.
They have the fast twist shallow grooves like a real conical should have(not like the deeper grooves like the 1-48's have).
The Pedersoli Rolling Block rifle I have in 50cal. shoots at 400 yards like most other rifles in muzzleloader will shoot at 200 yards. Real accurate way out there.
The conicals fast twist is best when the grooves are shallow like a cartridge gun. Don't blow all the gas past the bullet.

Anywhoooo....this is all ust my opinion as an old black powder shooter.
 
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I really don’t get where a slow twist will not shoot conical ?

Its not so much the twist but the type of conical and the type of rifling .
My main flintlock has an iron barrel of 54 cal , radius rifling and a 1 in 72 twist .
My elk load is 110 grains of 3F backing a 435 Bernard minie .
While not as accurate as a RB , it will hold more then enough accuracy at 100 yards for hunting .
Often times if we look back we will find that many of the guns know for conical like the Minie have twist rates , in 1 in 48 and slower . Numbers like 1 in 63, 1 in 78 or 1 in 120 are not uncommon . Especially if you look at Enfield’s . even if we compare their slow twist to fast 1 in 20 twists of the Whitworth in the British Field trials , the Whitworth only out shined the Enfield’s at ranges over 1500.
One just has to take the time to find the right conical , the right load for that conical .
If your wanting more , then get a custom barrel designed for the conical of choice .

i have measured TC bores that very between barrels as much as . 007 . they claimed to allow .010 . this IMO is why some TC's will shoot one conical or RB just fine , but the nextr will not even load or just drop down the bore .
 
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Captchee, you have a point there. Things were evolving back when those guns were being used. They say(who us they I don't remember) the longer conicals need a faster twist to stabilize. Shorter can take a slower twist.

I would thunk that when the guns you mentioned were being used they were loading loose conicals so they loaded easy in combat. Depended on obturation of the pure lead and slower twist probably were used so the projectile didn't strip the rifling.

I never found good conicals,even short ones, that shot well in slow twists. Of course I'm one that doesn't settle for anything but the most accurate loads fer huntin since ethics prompts me to want quick clean kills and being able to thread the needle,so to speak, to hit well thru brush and timber.

Anywhoooo, I have to commend anyone that takes the time to search fer just the right projectile for whatever gun they want to shoot. That's good sound wisdom naturally.

The problem I found was that the rifling being deep in a ball shooter rifle and short conicals being light hampered obturation and the conicals must have been stripping thru the rifling. Never tried a heavy long conical in a slow twist since I know the general rule is longer conicals need a faster twist to stabilize the bullet. Maybe there's something to the fact that the "smart guys in psychology" say that previous learning can hamper present learning.

Anywhoooo.....it's easier to go with the flow and use shallow fast twist fer conicals and slow deep twists fer the balls.

It would be interesting to see you shoot yer flinter with those heavy conicals.

I have hunted with a Hawken I made with a 45/70 barrel witha bullet swag to impart rifling to the bullets(520gr. Govt. from Lyman mould) to get them loaded right into the rifling grooves. It's a real nice shooter using 75gr. FFg Holy Black from a 1-20 twist .004 in. deep.

One thing I noticed with the old Investarms Hawken I have with the 1-48twist and,probably, .006 in. deep rifling is.....the heavier conicals do a lil better and I thunk it's because the resistance compliments the obturation of the lead into the rifling grooves. It's .500 bore and .512 grooves I'm thunkin.

Loading a sized .502 gets the conicals into the rifling enough to stay put so the lead has to obturate to get into the rest of the rifling.

The Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block muzzleloader rifle with an octagon 26 in. barrel and shallow grooves 1-20 twist loads bout the same way. Conicals sized .502 inch.

Both those rifles do well in the consistancy department but have to be relying on lead obturation.

I can't fully agree with,"it's not so much the twist .....", but can agree with.... ," type of conical and type of rifling".

Yer elk load is showin the powder has a factor too since the "big whack" from the 110gr. of "FFFg" has to be obturating the lead 435gr. minni(hollow based)conical that would be relatively short in a 54 cal.

I'd be wondering bout how many flyers there are and how the hollow base doesn't flare from the "big whack" of the powder charge. Must have a thick wall round the hollow base with a sorta small hollow. The slower twist probably helps the minni not strip thru the rifling and obturation of the lead must be getting the front part of the minni into the rifling some too.

Is the minni sorta short fer it's diameter? Makes it relatively true then that shorter conicals work better in slow twists? Heavier conicals provide enough resistance to help obturation?

Personally I don't have the patience to hunt fer the right bullet fer the wrong twist. I have a short 54cal. bullet mould from Dixies in Tenn. I bought many years ago. It wouldn't shoot in my Pedersoi Tryon rifle so.....I stuck it in the drawer and went to the right size round ball. The .520's recommended didn't shoot as well as I thought they should so I went to a .525 and never looked back but looked forward at the targets and deer that surcummed to that accurate ball. Really accurate rifle with a chome lined bore. Worth the moola.

Anywhoooo.....yer the "man" Captchee and probably enjoyable to go shootin with. Watchin you with that flinter would be interesting. You were an artillery gunner maybe?
 
You were an artillery gunner maybe?
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Nope. Infantry, light weapons prior to becoming mechanized
Spent some time working in acquisitions for the MOI which is now known as the NIM

But past all that .
One of the issues is the ides that the original guns shot a conical that was comprised all of lead .
In the case of a flat based conical , that would be true . But one of the issues with a flat based conical is that in deeper rifling , you are either going to have to forcibly engrave the conical into the rifling or use a heavy enough charge to get it to obturate fully into the rifling . Thus we see issues when using deep rifling .
However if one looks at hollow base bullets like the Minie , this wasn’t true . .
These actually had an expander plug made of either iron or in some cases wood which is seated into the hollow base . This allowed the conical to be easily loaded , yet still expand/ obturate to the rifling and yet still maintain its skirt .
Without that expander, when fired in deep rifling , the skirt will often fail in deep rifling . Yet at the same time work very well in shallow or micro rifling
Thus came the less heard of Bernard and his modified Minie with a much thicker skirt .
Thus remedying much of the issue with blow skirts on the Minie .

Now this is not to say that this is a long range system as in 3-400 yards unless you accepting minute of target .

With smaller calibers , like your 45/70 your shooting a 45 cal projectile in a case that’s basically meant to hold 70 grains of powder. Thus you need a much longer bullet to get to that 400 grain grange . IE smaller bore, longer projectile , faster twist..
Drop even small to the 40 cal of the long range Trial rifles , with their even longer bullets and you get an even faster twist .
Factually you even see this in RB barrels of today and even some of the small bore originals in that in the larger bores you will have many be a 1 in 70 . In some cases even slower if Fergusson principles are applied .
Yet for smaller bores in the .210 right on up to .450 you may find barrels in the 1 in 48-1 in 56

So the real issue isn’t in what can be done but how we apply an given application .
Historically , either these rifles were very accurate with large conicals in slow twists or they were not . If they were not then history has lied to us . Has it not ?
 
Interesting info Captchee. Yer a wealth of knowledge. A gentleman and a scholar. :)

You mentioned my 45/70 and it's case. The muzzleloader(no brass case since nno chamber ;)) Hawken I made has the 45/70 barrel one inch across the flats and 32 inches long with the 1-22 twist. I think I said it was 1-20 yesterday but was fuzzy still. :o

That rifle has shallow grooves of .004 inch. A bullet swag that was the end of the barrel when it was still round stock was made fer me by the rifle barrel maker. Thin lands and wide grooves so the bullet is deformed less that way. The end of the barrel cut off was funneled slightly so I can oil the bullets and tap them into the swag that's in a vise.
The bullets get the rifling engraved on them so loading is easy. Works really well and that is more accurate then the cartridge 45/70's I have since the bullet doesn't have to deal with a throat and all.
When I use a lil hammer while swagging the bullets sos to put a nice flat to the round nose bullets I make them so they are actually long wad cutters. That equates to energy and mechanics of the bullets being good fer quick clean kills.

Anyway I'd like to know where to get one of these BERNARD bullet moulds. I would like that fer that Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block muzzleloader I have. Fer the old Investarms Hawken too and.....an old Deer Creek pe-assembled kit rifle with the 50cal. fast twist shallow groove barrel.

The trick with those rifles that want long-ish bullets because of the fast twist is gettin the dang bullets in straight like can be done with a minni. Loadin non-minnies I have to size the bullets a hair over the land diameter to get them in straight and then use a good whack of a charge to obturate the lead flat bases conicals into the rifling. It works but.....a Bernard bullet would be easier to use.

All those rifles are 50cal. The old Hawken,the Rem RB Pedersoli and the Deer Creek kit rifle. The 50 cal. is a good one fer the conicals. Nice size,sectional density and weight to the conicals.

Now don't thunk me a conical only man because I like the round ball shootin rifles too. Less finicky and easy. The lead ball is a good projectile with it's lesser range. Who really shoots past 100-200 yards anywhoooo....I've killed multile deer and bigs ones included with the balls of lead. They are proven to have a unique lethal wound channel. Like "Elmer Kieth" said in his book bout the lead ball is the best killer of man and beast. They are good fer huntin and targets.

Anywhoooo...this is an interesting subject and this thread leaves an Hombre with somethin to thunk on. Newbies startin out and oldies learnin new tricks or being reminded bout what they fergitted.:o

Sorry bout being too long winded (long two fingered typin). I mastered the art of, "shootin the sh-t", long ago and am vulnerable to fits of not being able to shut up.:eek:
 
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