bamaranger
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incident
I thought the big California/LA shootouts settled all this?
I thought the big California/LA shootouts settled all this?
Boston Police and AR15's
- Thread starter cryogenic419
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Destructo6
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It's about hit probability as much as anything.
Given the same skill level, an individual will have a better chance of getting a good hit with a long arm than that same individual with a handgun.
Fewer misses is a good thing for everyone except a badguy.
Given the same skill level, an individual will have a better chance of getting a good hit with a long arm than that same individual with a handgun.
Fewer misses is a good thing for everyone except a badguy.
Interesting. There are a good number of agencies whose policies, regardless of law, require the use of seatbelts in Service vehicles. Even going to the point of refusing to pay out death benefits if one is killed in a motor vehicle accident while not wearing a seat belt.
Vehicles/SOPs, weapons ....
As a side note, many sworn LE agencies allow personnel to ride-drive without safety belts but more & more are adding dashcams/DV units to record any traffic incidents or disputes.
I for one, would not wear a seat belt or restraint on duty. It's not uncommon for bad guys or traffic stops to turn very ugly very quickly. I would not want to be physically attached to a motor vehicle in a critical incident.
A young police officer in my urban area was shot doing a traffic stop when two armed thugs bolted from a vehicle as the cop started the stop. He was hit in the lower abdomen & returned fire quickly(P226R 9x19mm; Ranger T/T Series 127gr +P+ JHP), wounding one of his attackers.
Going back to the SBSs/ARs, sworn LE as first responders, need the tools & weapons to act quickly. This saves lives.
As a side note, many sworn LE agencies allow personnel to ride-drive without safety belts but more & more are adding dashcams/DV units to record any traffic incidents or disputes.
I for one, would not wear a seat belt or restraint on duty. It's not uncommon for bad guys or traffic stops to turn very ugly very quickly. I would not want to be physically attached to a motor vehicle in a critical incident.
A young police officer in my urban area was shot doing a traffic stop when two armed thugs bolted from a vehicle as the cop started the stop. He was hit in the lower abdomen & returned fire quickly(P226R 9x19mm; Ranger T/T Series 127gr +P+ JHP), wounding one of his attackers.
Going back to the SBSs/ARs, sworn LE as first responders, need the tools & weapons to act quickly. This saves lives.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
SWAT has an interesting article this month on long distance shots with handguns.
Here's something to think about - where I work (a nice target for a rampage), my building (full of gun free students and faculty) is about 100 meters from end to end down a straight hall. Might be reasonable if a rapidly responding officer could have an easier gun to make a shot down that hallway.
Here's something to think about - where I work (a nice target for a rampage), my building (full of gun free students and faculty) is about 100 meters from end to end down a straight hall. Might be reasonable if a rapidly responding officer could have an easier gun to make a shot down that hallway.
Justice06RR
New member
I'm curious what AR15 they are buying For $2500 each...
That's a little pricey for 1 M4, unless they are buying some top-end rifles or accesorizing them with expensive optics.
They could buy 2 Colt M4's for that price and have money left for ammo
armsmaster270
New member
Before I was sent to L.A. for the Olympics I practiced with my Model 19 4" at 100 yards using WW 145 grain Silvertips. I was using the neck on a B-27 silhouette as my aiming point and all rounds impacted the upper chest.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Most of us can hit a B-27 with a Glock at 100 yards with a touch of practice. Doing it under stress and faced with a nut with a long arm - would you rather have a rifle?
Scoped rifle....
I'd opt for a scoped rifle.
I meant to add too that most US law enforcement/public safety vehicles have modified safety equipment or upgrades too over standard models.
Look online at the NYPD 2020 police vehicle.
Clyde
PS; FWIW, restraints or no, traffic related accidents kill more sworn US law enforcement than guns/lethal force per year.
I'd opt for a scoped rifle.
I meant to add too that most US law enforcement/public safety vehicles have modified safety equipment or upgrades too over standard models.
Look online at the NYPD 2020 police vehicle.
Clyde
PS; FWIW, restraints or no, traffic related accidents kill more sworn US law enforcement than guns/lethal force per year.
I say give em the tools to do the job at hand.
Teaching LE officers response to an active shooter courses has shown me that ar/m4/whatever flavor type weapons are a MUST have item. Nobody wants to go into an active shooter environment at a school armed with a handgun or shotgun.
Precise shot placement with enough horsepower to defeat ad hoc armor is whats needed in these events.
Remember there are long hallways and courtyards to deal with. All mixed in with tight corrners and locker rooms. WITH innocent victims running around. A shotgun is NOT the correct platform to deal with this problem. A well set up AR will solve the problem better then most
IMHO
Teaching LE officers response to an active shooter courses has shown me that ar/m4/whatever flavor type weapons are a MUST have item. Nobody wants to go into an active shooter environment at a school armed with a handgun or shotgun.
Precise shot placement with enough horsepower to defeat ad hoc armor is whats needed in these events.
Remember there are long hallways and courtyards to deal with. All mixed in with tight corrners and locker rooms. WITH innocent victims running around. A shotgun is NOT the correct platform to deal with this problem. A well set up AR will solve the problem better then most
IMHO
LockedBreech
New member
Sharkbite said:
That's really the key right there. Yes, it's nonsense that AR-type rifles are hard or impossible for non-police to own in Boston. That said, if a shooter manages to kill more people because the police aren't equipped to stop them quickly, someone will have died for political reasons, which is never okay.
US Navy Yard active shooter....
Keep in mind the recent event with the US Navy(Washington DC area) spree shooter. He started with a 12ga sporting type shotgun, then stole a security officer's pistol & kept shooting.
After action reviews said a local federal LE special unit offered to responded but were told to stand down
. edit: the police unit was the CERT or critical event response team from the US Capital Police. Four CERT members with ARs & other special weapons were turned away during the spree shooting.
To my knowledge, the LE supervisor who made that call was seriously reprimanded in the post-event investigation.
Keep in mind the recent event with the US Navy(Washington DC area) spree shooter. He started with a 12ga sporting type shotgun, then stole a security officer's pistol & kept shooting.
After action reviews said a local federal LE special unit offered to responded but were told to stand down
. edit: the police unit was the CERT or critical event response team from the US Capital Police. Four CERT members with ARs & other special weapons were turned away during the spree shooting.To my knowledge, the LE supervisor who made that call was seriously reprimanded in the post-event investigation.
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Theohazard
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Clyde, that makes no sense at all. A seatbelt greatly increases your chances of surviving a car accident. An officer is FAR more likely to be in a potentially deadly traffic accident than they are to have their seatbelt hinder them in a firefight. I just found several articles about how police departments around the country are trying to save lives by changing their officers' wrong-headed approach of not wearing seatbelts. Here's one:ClydeFrog said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a8dd10-f207-11e1-892d-bc92fee603a7_story.html
I would bet any amount of money that for every one situation where a cop was hindered by his seatbelt, there are MANY more where a cop was in a car accident and was saved by his seatbelt.ClydeFrog said:
This reminds me of the people who are convinced that flying is dangerous so they drive everywhere instead. Even though your chances of getting in a deadly car accident are FAR greater than of dying in a plane crash.
Safety features, occupational issues....
While I agree that seat belts save lives & are a practical standard for liability or risk management reasons, I would fully understand why some sworn LE or union groups would not want them.
Modern LE vehicles come with better safety equipment than most standard vehicles sold to the general public. This is due in part because LE officers drive more & are in traffic more than most citizens.
A veteran police officer(22 years) I worked with in 11/2013 told me how he's had 13 traffic accidents & totalled 4 LE vehicles in his career. Is that high? Yes. Is that unusual for working LE officer? Not really.
Another deputy I worked with in the 2000s, told me how the highway patrol changed their SOPs & regulations because troopers would exit the patrol vehicle, put on & adjust their issued headgear(hat) then be attacked by motorists.
The new policy let sworn members choose when or where they would wear the straw uniform hat while on duty. This was a officer safety issue to the troopers.
While I agree that seat belts save lives & are a practical standard for liability or risk management reasons, I would fully understand why some sworn LE or union groups would not want them.
Modern LE vehicles come with better safety equipment than most standard vehicles sold to the general public. This is due in part because LE officers drive more & are in traffic more than most citizens.
A veteran police officer(22 years) I worked with in 11/2013 told me how he's had 13 traffic accidents & totalled 4 LE vehicles in his career. Is that high? Yes. Is that unusual for working LE officer? Not really.
Another deputy I worked with in the 2000s, told me how the highway patrol changed their SOPs & regulations because troopers would exit the patrol vehicle, put on & adjust their issued headgear(hat) then be attacked by motorists.
The new policy let sworn members choose when or where they would wear the straw uniform hat while on duty. This was a officer safety issue to the troopers.
We seem to be forgetting that police officers prevail in bad situations not because they are individually well armed, but because there are many of them! 10 men with pistols will always prevail over 1 nut with a long gun. Plus, that's the strategy! When a lone police officer charges into an active shooter situation it usually doesn't end well for the officer, no matter how well he is armed.
Also, enough with all the foolish seat belt/car safety talk. Even if it was illegal, I would always wear a seat belt, you would have to be crazy not to. The numbers on traffic fatalities are clear. And what's all this talk about police cars being 'better'?! In independent tests police cars always have worse acceleration and braking distances than the base cars they are built from. The ones I've worked on around here have upgraded shocks (still barely adequate for all the added weight; rear cage, lights, wiring, etc) and I fail to see how filling the passenger cabin with sharp angular objects (gun mounts, lap top & holder, radio controls, etc) makes them safer! Sorry to be the barer of bad news, but a new Charger SRT8 of the showroom floor is not only safer, but will accelerate faster and stop quicker than its patrol car cousins.
Also, enough with all the foolish seat belt/car safety talk. Even if it was illegal, I would always wear a seat belt, you would have to be crazy not to. The numbers on traffic fatalities are clear. And what's all this talk about police cars being 'better'?! In independent tests police cars always have worse acceleration and braking distances than the base cars they are built from. The ones I've worked on around here have upgraded shocks (still barely adequate for all the added weight; rear cage, lights, wiring, etc) and I fail to see how filling the passenger cabin with sharp angular objects (gun mounts, lap top & holder, radio controls, etc) makes them safer! Sorry to be the barer of bad news, but a new Charger SRT8 of the showroom floor is not only safer, but will accelerate faster and stop quicker than its patrol car cousins.
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Post 55....
I disagree with several of the points in post #55.
A rifle can be very deadly in skilled hands. Read American Sniper or One Shot, One Kill.
As for the LE patrol vehicles, I stand by comments. They have improved brakes, engines, roll cages/safety equipment, DV camera systems, etc. The problems & lawsuits brought on by the Ford Crown Victoria line in the 1990s/2000s brought a lot of changes to modern era LE vehicles.
I disagree with several of the points in post #55.
A rifle can be very deadly in skilled hands. Read American Sniper or One Shot, One Kill.
As for the LE patrol vehicles, I stand by comments. They have improved brakes, engines, roll cages/safety equipment, DV camera systems, etc. The problems & lawsuits brought on by the Ford Crown Victoria line in the 1990s/2000s brought a lot of changes to modern era LE vehicles.
Wreck-n-Crew
New member
The Main reason for the improvements is because of high speed chases and accidents where extra protection was needed, but what your missing is that they are for use with the seatbelt and do nothing to stop a police officer from dying when going through a windshield. Which by the way kills many people in head on crashes.
Besides this is taking the thread off topic. All equipment, tools, and tactics are subject to change and that is the only thing they have in common with the OP.
Note: Most LE are trained to remove their seatbelt as they slow down before stopping to prevent it being in the way and when speeds are slower and seatbelts are ineffective.
As far as the AR15 being a good and often necessary tool to have for LE, all that Boston need is a good 1997 style LA shootout to happen and then decide whether they need them.(sarcasm) They can argue about when or how they are allowed to use them but not having them is just waiting to be behind the 8 ball before realizing they were playing pool IMO.
Seems silly to me that someone would have to think about it/ take at look at it to determine if it is necessary at some point and some way to have them. I am willing to bet he would give a different answer if he had it to do all over again.
SmokeeatersE35
Inactive
Ar-15 Or Remington 1100
I asked a Mass State trooper frined of mine why he didnt get and AR when they asked him to switch his remington 1100 out...he told me he would rather use his shotgun over the standard 55 grain FMJ bullets they issue to the troopers who have them issued...it may be more firepower but all depending on the situation is a 55 grain FMJ going to do what you need to to do? Or will your shotgun suffice? it all comes down to what your comfortable using i guess
I asked a Mass State trooper frined of mine why he didnt get and AR when they asked him to switch his remington 1100 out...he told me he would rather use his shotgun over the standard 55 grain FMJ bullets they issue to the troopers who have them issued...it may be more firepower but all depending on the situation is a 55 grain FMJ going to do what you need to to do? Or will your shotgun suffice? it all comes down to what your comfortable using i guess
Massad Ayoob; FHP....
Gun writer & tactics instructor Mas Ayoob wrote a few months ago that a contact in the main HQ of the Florida Highway Patrol informed him their new SOP for all sworn troopers was to allow certain brands/types of ARs/M4s if the troopers purchased and qualified with it.
That seems fair. Id get a .300AAC Blackout with a KAC(Knights Armament) or Surefire surpressor & EOtech scope. I might add a white light with strobe too if I were a working FHP trooper.
I'd want a surpressed rifle in a caliber larger than 5.56x45mm(5.56mmNATO) so the muzzle flash didn't give away my position in low light & I could hear better/yell commands without any deafness/hearing loss.
A 7.62 or 6.8x40mm wouldn't be bad, but that might be too much in a patrol rifle.
Gun writer & tactics instructor Mas Ayoob wrote a few months ago that a contact in the main HQ of the Florida Highway Patrol informed him their new SOP for all sworn troopers was to allow certain brands/types of ARs/M4s if the troopers purchased and qualified with it.
That seems fair. Id get a .300AAC Blackout with a KAC(Knights Armament) or Surefire surpressor & EOtech scope. I might add a white light with strobe too if I were a working FHP trooper.
I'd want a surpressed rifle in a caliber larger than 5.56x45mm(5.56mmNATO) so the muzzle flash didn't give away my position in low light & I could hear better/yell commands without any deafness/hearing loss.
A 7.62 or 6.8x40mm wouldn't be bad, but that might be too much in a patrol rifle.
Destructo6
New member
While having your pet setup would be nice, unless everyone is using the same stuff, you put yourself and your teammates at a disadvantage.
Using a unique caliber means that you cannot borrow nor loan ammo: more guns are better.
Suppressors are nice, so long as everyone is using one. The moment your buddy with the 870 or unsuppressed rifle takes a shot, your hearing is done.
I have my own pet loadouts and preferences, but use the standard, bone stock, stuff on duty, because if my partner goes down, I can use his stuff without much concern and vice-versa.
The only reason I can think of is to cover an officer should he die in a traffic accident on duty, while not wearing a seatbelt. It's a real downer for an officer to die in a on-duty accident, then have the agency kick around the possibility of not paying his family death benefits because he wasn't wearing his seat belt (whether that would have saved him or not).
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