Bolt Action Rifles for Combat

I don't know about Afghanistan, but the British in Northern Ireland were operating under some heavy constraints. Another case might be Budapest in 1956, when the Soviet army's response to sniper fire from a building was to turn tank guns on the building and blast it to rubble. They didn't care whether "innocent" people were killed or not.

Jim
 
Well, guys, I read Anthony's post, and then I read your replies, and I'm confused. He asked what you thought of the rifle he described, as a '...personal weapon that could also be used for combat.' Then you spent lots of time telling him that his dream gun wasn't suitable for military use. I didn't understand that he was describing a first line issue infantry weapon, as some of you seemed to. I assumed that he was talking about a rifle that could both hunt and defend; stand-off and close-in. the implication being that accuracy and precision would be necessary attributes, as well as firepower. The doctrine of spray and pray doesn't come into this. A lone rifleman, well supplied with ammunition, can give good account of himself against individuals, as well as large and small disorganized groups in situations of insurrection, civil disorder or riot. The bolt gun of .30 caliber has only limited capabilities as a general issue military weapon, granted. But IMHO, as a 'general purpose' rifle, it still beats a pointed stick or an AK/AR/SKS all to blazes. slabsides

------------------
An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject; a disarmed man is a slave.
 
Sounds like the 'What's the best rifle' question on the Practicle Rifle boards.

If you could choose ONLY one bolt gun, here's my take:

1) Steyr Scout package, .308 w/ all the trimmings.
2) Savage Scout, .308
3) FR-8, .308 (Do we have a trend here?)
4) Enfield Number 4 Mark I/II- slickest action I've seen, and you can fight your own 'Defense of Rourke's Drift' just fine!
5) Any converted 'short' Enfield (Jungle or Tanker)
6) Any rifle the shooter can hit targets with using a reasonably powerful cartridge.

Not too many 'MODERN' rifles here. Interesting.

If I thought I'd need a S/A, I'd opt for an FN FAL. Slick, sturdy, universal, accurate to military specs. If you can hit an E-type silhouette at 400m all day long (you can, believe me) then the rifle itself will do it's part.


------------------
Train like you fight: second place is not an option.
 
Prichard, actualy I hear there was once a weapon that would allow a lone hero to whoop butt on an entire army; sometime during the Cold War the U.S. Army developed the Davy Crocket Atomic Bazooka. I can't say for sure if this weapon existed, but I hear it did from people I trust.

My all-time favorite rifle was Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1 "tanker carbine". It looked real cool, was solid as a rock, and worked pretty good too. I liked the 10 round magazine and the bayonet lug. The bayonet is one of my favorite martial arts weapons. Ah the joys of the Western arts...

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of recoil, not so much because it spooks me as much as the noise bugs me and I like to shoot a lot but hate recoil pads, so I invariably end up battered and bruised. I'd like the same sort of action and look in .223 with a higher capacity magazine.

That said, firestorm tactics will usualy beat out marksmanship and I don't think that a bolt action rifle has any palce in a front line infantry unit and I except for special cases like taking out key command personel, I have serious doubts as to how much a sniper really alters the course of a battle.

Sure, sucks to be the guy he caps, but one man out of a batalion isn't going to be missed by anyone but his friends and family.

Also, wars are getting more and more urban everyday, where autoloaders have an edge, even over 18 inch bayonets.

As a personal weapon, I have to assume an end of the world scenario, then I'd say a good bolt action rifle would be fine because you wouldn't be facing a modern army on the field of combat, or probably even more than a handful of badguys at a time. A rugged and reliable weapon like a bolt action can be definately has an edge.

I think some of the TEOTWAWKI scenarios are pretty dumb; especialy the "bugout and hide in the woods" one. While you're hiding in the woods, somebody else is shaping the tribe that will form the nation that fills the void left by the destruction of the last. I think a lot of this stuff is just for fantasy, which is fine too. I guess I should go to the survivalist forum for this though...
 
OK, if I look at the original question, it sounds like it was how effective can a man be with a light bolt action rifle with low power scope? (sounds a lot like Jeff Cooper's scout rifle concept).

I know an instructor (there's an article on him in the recent SWAT magazine) who entered a tactical carbine class at arrgh I think it was Thunder Ranch. Yes, THE Thunder Ranch with permission to use his bolt rifle which does not have a scope but does have ghost ring sights. I call these "glassless scout rifles" or "utility rifles".

Except for short range multiple target engagements, he did just fine.

In my own experience, the advantage of a semi-auto large capacity carbine such as AR-15 or something disappears around 15-25 yards depending on how good the shooter is.
(note within short range the assault rifle/carbine really shines IMHO)

With that said, a bolt gun like a #4 Lee-Enfield (my personal favorite for utility rifles) offers advantages of:
-COST!! I paid $100 for my designated utility rifle.
-benign appearance (snicker...)
-PUNCH/WHALLOP/REACH whatever you want to call it. .303, .30-06, .308 NATO, all offer quite a bit of THUMP if you want to shoot through obstacles. (watch that overpenetration, though)
-I'm not going to be crying for years if it gets lost/stolen.

Will a bolt gun do? IMHO it will do if YOU will do. It's the man, not the gun that wins.

I still love my AR-15, but the L-E #4 has a definite role in my collection.

Edmund
 
I guess I'll add my support for the Lee-Enfield. It is the best MILITARY/COMBAT bolt action. Barrel length, stocks, etc are a matter of personal preference. But if you are contending against an enemy with semi-automatic rifles, selective fire, MG, etc, you better plan on shoot & scoot. I wouldn't let them get within 150-100 yds before I was gone. I'd probably keep it at 200yds plus. Otherwise, the volume of fire issue will overwhelm you.
One other thing. Use an action that allows you to reload with stripper clips. That will necessitate a scout type of scope if you intend to use glass. Remember, the armies equipped with bolt action rifles went to stripper clips before the turn of the century. No point in being over 100 yrs behind the times.

------------------
Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
Way of thread but, yes Davey Crocket was built both convetional and atomic, if memory serves it used the W56 or W54 variable yield fison device (dial a nuke) with setting from .025kt ot .25kt Two test shots were fired and the names are correct is corney

Shot Little Feller 1 Hand Placed Device

Shot Little Feller 2 Launched from Spigot morter (davey crocket) from fixed mount.

The story goes that in '67 congres found out that the deploment would be wiht an E7 or E6 commanding the Davey Crocket there was much concern that the use would be pratically unresticted and they pulled the plug on the A-bomb ver. Several of the conv. models were sent for testing in S.E. Asia

Nukes are a sort of hobby of mine.

[This message has been edited by Nestor Rivera (edited August 26, 1999).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top