bolt action guys... interested in more efficient cartridges???

Me?

Not so much.

My centerfire rifle calibers are 223, 243 and 30-06. Covers all my bases very nicely, I think. I understand the urge for some shooters to have the latest new boutique calibers. But they just don't do anything the old reliables can't do just about as well, in my book.
 
one thing I noticed... the barrel sure gets hotter with a 25-06, than it does with the more "efficient" cartridges... ( had my 25-06 out this weekend :) )
 
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Might be a little off topic

This is a little off topic but I have wondered if anyone has gone through and done a thermodynamic efficiency table for any cartridges. I was thinking you could get the Pressure/volume curves and find the work energy performed by the expanding gasses in the barrel. Then get the muzzle energy from muzzle velocity and bullet mass to get a general thermodynamic efficiency from the two. Say a 30/06 with a muzzle energy of 3800J and you calculated the P/V integral at say 5000J you would have and efficiency of 76% the rest being lost by heat absorption and other means. Granted this would only be usable in internal ballistic comparisons. You could also potentially calculate barrel heating if you had the mass and heat capacity of the barrel metal.
 
Define efficiency?

based on the improved efficiency, I did try a couple short magnum rifles, but was less than impressed. In the end I got rid of the short magnum rifles and stuck with the oldies but goodies. .223 .243, 270,308, 30-06, 338.
 
I like Winchester's line of short mags. I have all of them except the .325, and I plan on building one of those in the near future.
 
The internet has perpetuated a myth that you need seriously large magnums to kill brown and grizzly bear. A lot of these big animals were killed before the magnums came along with old black powder muzzle loaders and cartridges. There was a story a few years back out of Alaska of a guy killing a brown bear sow with a .220 Swift, it was the only rifle he had and his buddy who was being mauled by the bear was glad that he had it.
Lots of things may or may not kill a brown/grizzly bear. But the more you reduce the power of the cartridge and weight/diameter of the pill, the more you reduce your margin of error - against an animal more than capable of snacking on you should it feel the urge.

I for one would prefer not to take any more chances against deadly game than absolutely necessary, and that means were I ever to find myself in big (not black) bear country, you can bet I'll have a heavy, slamming rifle in hand. Something along the lines of a .375 H&H or bigger.
 
Bet you'll never guess what cartridge all these game animals were killed with.

JW_French1.jpg
 
I would guess either .30-30 Win or .30-40 Kraig.
Looking at the Rifle, its probably older than those two cartridges.
 
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As Paul Harvey would say "Here is the rest of the story."

Hunting With The Old Ones


All this talk about the old Savage rifles, and rarely do we hear about what they were used for. For as far back as Savage started to sell the Model 1899 and other models, they were advertised beyond their actual use. Ads of the 1895s with kills of such animals as Lions and elephants were amazing to the general hunting population. Even when the 22 H.P. was introduced awe inspiring commercialism was Savages mainstay with ads of the little Imp taking leopards in Africa. In this day and age we would do a serious double take if someone asked you to go around the world and challenge the big five with nothing but a small 20 carbine model 1899H. With all the new offerings available to the hunters of this day it would be suicide to do so, but yet it seems like the old boys club were either a lot braver or down right crazy back then. Could you picture yourself standing in front of a charging lion with a small 22 caliber pill being throw from this small rifle and drop it? Not this guy.


J.W. French shown with his trusted Savage Model 1899 T/D chambered in .250-3000 Savage.

JW_French1.jpg


It brings back a funny memory of the time I first took my model 23B in 25-20 to the range. A group of modern day magnum junkies were shooting at the benches beside me and laughed at the small round every time I pulled the trigger. They asked what I was shooting and had another chuckle when the found they were 86 grain pills and sounded like a pistol round. Their faces sure dropped when I explained to them that it was the same round the Jordan buck was taken with, so just because its old doesn't mean its useless.

A friend of mine recently found some old boxes from an estate and sent me a note due to my Savage infatuation, seems it was all about a man named J.W. French. I was totally amazed at the literature and photos that were in this treasure trove of Savage history, as all he used was an old model 1899 T/D in 250-3000. He was the man of men when it came to being a lone mountain man, going out for weeks on end with his camp kit and the old (then new) rifle. It was used so much that Ive got a factory letter from 1921 regarding a total overhaul on the rifle, including a new barrel and stock set as well as a good cleaning. He took countless Rocky Mountain game species and in one hunt stalked and killed nine grizzlies with this little rifle that shot 87 grain bullets at that time. Somewhere during his years he was sworn in a made a special constable and given a badge without salary for the Game Conservation Board of British Columbia.


J.W. French's Model 1899 T/D in .250-3000 Savage and a freshly harvested bull Moose in British Columbia.

JW_French2.jpg


With today's long list of magnum cartridges and flashy new models from Savage, there just isn't a large interest in hunting with older models such as the Model 99, 1920, 40 and 45 centerfire rifles. Fortunately we can rest assured that somewhere they are sitting in a dusty corner just waiting for the opportunity to hit the field again and prove once again that they are more than capable. The vicious rumor of the Winchester 94 30-30 taking the most deer in its history may be true, but there's little question that the Savage Model 99 was and still is a close second.

Submitted by Joe Koprash
 
Hey Taylorce1 it just once again proves the old saying; "its the indian, not the arrow". That was a good story. I remember a Jack O'Conner story where he ran across his friend Charlie Ren while hunting sheep (or mountain goats). Jack asked about the worn out looking winchester 30-30 he was carrying. Charlie said something like, "hell, you can knock them over with anything, its finding them thats so damn hard".

Learn to hunt and shoot and you can do a lot of work with a small, assumed weak round. Don't know how to hunt, better buy a bigger gun.

I am rereading Finn Aagaards Selected Works from Wolfe publishing for about the 6th time right now. In one story Finn used a 22 hornet to shoot some large plains animals. His ammo was loaded with bullets that had tougher jackets than the normally loaded varmint style bullets normally found in american loads. Better bullets let him make some impressive kills on african game.

John Barsness wrote an article in Rifle Magazine on effecient rounds in 2002. I would recommend that folks get a copy from Wolfe Publishing. It will put this topic in good perspective.
 
This is a formula I have been working on to explain cartridge efficiency (not a complete finished product):

EfficiencyFormula_zpse4a96fb8.jpg


This formula gives you a 1 to 10 scale for cartridge efficiency, with 1 being least efficient and 10 being the most efficient. Here are the results of some common cartridges (table on left shows most efficient on top to least efficient on bottom; graph just showing efficiency vs caliber).

cartridges_zpsfd871fe3.jpg


It's not perfect, but it is a start.
 
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There are some cartridges that have been deemed very inefficient pretty high on that list. I'm not arguing with your formula I just think its interesting as it goes against what some have said in this thread. I never knew I had such efficient rifles ;) I like the results
 
steveNChunter said:
There are some cartridges that have been deemed very inefficient pretty high on that list. I'm not arguing with your formula I just think its interesting as it goes against what some have said in this thread. I never knew I had such efficient rifles. ;) I like the results

I think you read the table wrong, so to make it easier. I put them in order from most (top of table) to least (bottom of table). I think it gels well with what people have been saying in this thread.
 
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No I think I'm reading it right. I'm referring to cartridges like the .25-06, 6mm rem, .240 wby mag, and .270 win being in the top half of the list. Not many people would consider those to be very efficient cartridges.

But the bottom half of the list is mostly magnums, so I guess that's not saying a whole lot
 
Geo, I don't really agree with the methodology of the formula. For all practical purposes, it is not taking bullet dia. into account. In theory, I could take a 300 Win mag and neck it down to .22 cal, and your forumula would give it almost identical numbers to its parent.(saving the slight change in water capacity due to necking)
 
reynolds357 said:
Geo, I don't really agree with the methodology of the formula. For all practical purposes, it is not taking bullet dia. into account. In theory, I could take a 300 Win mag and neck it down to .22 cal, and your forumula would give it almost identical numbers to its parent.(saving the slight change in water capacity due to necking)

Yeah, I should of thought of that, so I worked out a new equation:

Equation_zps4b5753a0.jpg


Which results in a new table (Same applies, most efficient on top and least efficient on the bottom):

cartridgeefficiency_zps70164448.jpg
 
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